Fading Memory Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 You can Manifest with your 2 general AP, good for you. Avatar of Decay uses Mass Grave, try and cheat for the Red Joker to get 4 more Mindless Zombies. After all your card draw, you probably were able to filter both Jokers into your hand. Cast Decay to heal all your guys As you are Manifesting on Turn 2 and have only completed 1 Manifest requirement, Manifest counts as an (All) action. You are not allowed to cast the (0) Mass Grave action. Nicodem has to kill enemy models with Decay as his other manifest requirement and he has yet to attack enemy models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinsation Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 At this point, Rogue Necromancy can Acid Breath and filter through more Mindless Zombies, and Flesh Golem/Punk Zombie can do the same. Even your Mindless Zombies can get in on this action. Rafkin should have about 40 counters by now What would this help though? He only gets counters when corpse tokens are discarded or sacrificed I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) As you are Manifesting on Turn 2 and have only completed 1 Manifest requirement, Manifest counts as an (All) action. You are not allowed to cast the (0) Mass Grave action. Nicodem has to kill enemy models with Decay as his other manifest requirement and he has yet to attack enemy models. Actually if you target Mindless Zombies (even with blasts), you are hitting "enemy" models (as not friendly to your crew). This is one of the easiest requirements to fulfill and because of that Nicodem's avatar may be the easiest to manifest: 1. Arise with 3 counters. 2. Decay on one of the MZ, cheating high enough to be able to cheat the damage flip (this does require a high card, because MZs are Hard to Wound 1), ensuring the damage flip is Severe and placing the blasts to hit at least one other MZ, resulting in both MZ dead. 3. Manifest with both Requirements met. You can do it with (0) action, Specific AP (Casting expert) and (2)General AP in turn 2. (1)General AP in Turn 3. Edited September 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Do MZ count as enemy? I thought they were "neutral" for all intents an purposes. Or does the absence of "friendly" immediately qualify a model as "enemy"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 What would this help though? He only gets counters when corpse tokens are discarded or sacrificed I thought. When a Corpse Token falls to the ground and is auto-transformed into MZ by Nicodem's Avatar, the counter is discarded, so Rafkin gets his BPs. When Nicodem Reanimates something undead using MZs as counters, they get sacrificed, so Rafkin gets BPs. By killing your own minions and then Reanimating or Arising them, you ensure constant supply of BPs to Rafkin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) Do MZ count as enemy? I thought they were "neutral" for all intents an purposes. Or does the absence of "friendly" immediately qualify a model as "enemy"? There's no clear definition of Neutral as far as gaming term. It is a special rule on Mindless Zombies and all it does is make them not belong to any crew. Friendly & Enemy models are defined on the page 13: Friendly - essentially the model is under your crew's control at the moment. Enemy - a model under another's crew control. Now that I'm re-thinking it, it puts MZs into gray area, because they don't belong to any crew... On one hand they may not be "enemy" and still be "not friendly" (Neutral status is not defined though), on the other hand they'd work exactly the same as all enemy models when targeted by the Decay spell, which means they are enemy models for all means and purposes. Does a model not belonging to any crew is under "another's crew control" in gaming terms? I've always read it that way, because I assumed the judgement if something is enemy or friendly is made from the acting crew point of view (is it mine? yes->friendly; no->another crew's -> enemy). That's something where knowing the intent would help. Edited September 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 There's no clear definition of Neutral as far as gaming term. It is a special rule on Mindless Zombies and all it does is make them not belong to any crew. Friendly & Enemy models are defined on the page 13: Friendly - essentially the model is under your crew's control at the moment. Enemy - a model under another's crew control. Now that I'm re-thinking it, it puts MZs into gray area, because they don't belong to any crew... On one hand they may not be "enemy" and still be "not friendly" (Neutral status is not defined though), on the other hand they'd work exactly the same as all enemy models when targeted by the Decay spell, which means they are enemy models for all means and purposes. Does a model not belonging to any crew is under "another's crew control" in gaming terms? I've always read it that way, because I assumed the judgement if something is enemy or friendly is made from the acting crew point of view (is it mine? yes->friendly; no->another crew's -> enemy). That's something where knowing the intent would help. Neutral isn't stated in the book, because only Mindless Zombies have it. Neutral is defined on their card. They don't belong to either crew so they can be neither friendly, nor enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Neutral isn't stated in the book, because only Mindless Zombies have it. Neutral is defined on their card. They don't belong to either crew so they can be neither friendly, nor enemy. To belong to a crew is a model's status under general rules. In this specific case a special rule makes the model not belong to any crew, which already makes it an exception to general rules. Does neutral model belong to another crew (as is doesn't belong to mine) when you target it, or does it belong to no crew and thus is neither? I can see why you choose the later option, but I'm not convinced the intent is for it to be that way. The general rules are binary - models can only be friendly or enemy. Neutral rule doesn't make it clear how the exception it introduces affects friendly/enemy distinction, merely establishes there's no controlling crew (which is a status general rules don't provide for at all). It must be enemy, since it is not friendly and "another crew's control" can be read as "not in my control" rather than "my opponent's control" - that too is an argument with some validity, in the context of the binary character of the general rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Neutral isn't stated in the book, because only Mindless Zombies have it. Neutral is defined on their card. They don't belong to either crew so they can be neither friendly, nor enemy. Not quite it counts as an enemy to both crews. Things that target enemies can target them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Not quite it counts as an enemy to both crews. Things that target enemies can target them. Hmm, I'm glad the ruling confirms the way I thought it to work, but could you please point towards the reason for that? (i.e. is it because the models can only be either friendly or enemy and anything not friendly is always enemy, or is it because "another's crew control" means simply "not in my control", when resolving attacks?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 And Yay! for Nicodem being able to Manifest in turn 2~3 with such an ease! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Thanks for the quick clarification. Now I really want him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Wow. That's hot. I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 The list looks good, but is probably not going to raise the same level of complaints as other lists. There are several ways most crews can disrupt your plans in the first couple of turns. Sure, they need to know that that is what they will need to do to stop a jugganaught smashing face in turns 5 and 6, but that is of limited shock effect. Certainly an interesting and tough list, and well worth playing, but I don't think it is as powerful as you think. Which is possibly what makes the list even better. Plus in time limited games this sounds like a long process, and several people already struggle to get past turn 4 in the 90 minutes or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matamane Posted September 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Given the ruling clarification, I return to my lair and will recreate the list keeping your criticisms in mind as I remake the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippieshopper Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 I like it. It was a big batch of theorized cookies but I still like it. I still like rotten belles too much though. I also want to see how McM pairs with Rafkin. The only thing I don't like about this game is that level of rules lawyering that goes so deep. If you have a question on a set of rules, they can't get figured out by the books, as just about every other game can. The necessity to go to this forum and filter through the BS and bickering is teeth-grindingly annoying. I love you, Ratty, but the presence of a rules marshall really just shows this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Unlike GW where you can call the Trolls and get whichever unofficial answer the guy on duty makes up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Moses Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 sounds like your opponent will be sitting around for 1 hour for each of your activations and kicking him self on why would he play a game with you and probably never play another game with you again where it take 3 hours to get to turn 4. plain out not fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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