Alp Bomb, Mark 2

[micahwc]

Again, all my consideration is for competetive play, In a casual game I run with the standard "don't be a dick" policy.

Our group usually uses the same policy, except when some were preparing for Gencon and wanted us to fight dirty.

[Buhallin]

Now sir, we're on the same page Much easier to tweak up than down.

While I'm pretty much done arguing what's OP and not, this statement simply isn't true.

Tweaking up may be more popular than tweaking down, but it's not necessarily easier - simple math says that, and it's pretty directly obvious in this case. In the simple evaluation that the Book 2 masters rock, and most of the Book 1 masters suck, there are 5 to tweak down or 15 to tweak up. It's pretty obvious which of those is easier.

More importantly, though, it's simply not possible to always tweak up without making the game completely degenerate. This has occurred in many other games - the old Decipher Star Wars CCG was the best example of it I ever experienced, but it's been quite common. There's a point where things are so powerful that the only issue left in the game is luck, and sometimes that can be as simple as who goes first. Again, using the Decipher SWCCG as an example, this actually happened at the 1998 Worlds - they let something slip through playtesting that was so broken, something like 21 of 24 players used them, and most games were determined by who went first.

What's more, always tweaking up carries greater risk. If they decided the Book 2 masters were too much, and cuddled them, what happens if they overdo one of them? Well, now the Dreamer sucks and all the Dreamer players drop him to pick up Marcus. Bad for the Dreamer. But what happens going the other way? They buff everyone, and overdo Marcus to where he stomps face the way he deserves to. Now what do they do? If you hold to the "always tweak up" rule, then we now have to adjust 19 other masters to catch up with Marcus. I think it's pretty obvious where that ends.

So, again, tweaking up may be more popular with players, but it's certainly not easier and it's almost definitely not good for the game.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Twisting Fates did not "balance" the game in my opinion, but the ramifications of all the models within will be hard to judge until their models are released, but from my perspective, for example, nothing in the resser section now makes Nicodem the equal of the Dreamer at any particular strat. And one of the issue with some of the Masters (not just the Dreamer) is that some of them can better manipulate the ability to gain VP than their opponents, as well as the fact that the Faction specific schemes are not balanced equally across their prospective masters lists or opponents. Try looking at Resser specific schemes against Arcanist or Neverborn ones. This isn't to say the any factions are too easy or broken, just that the faction specific schemes are not rated for the same ease of completion across the masters and factions.

[Necromorph]

I think what people are missing is that Twisting Fates did for the most part balance out the game. As it goes, the Neverborne as consider to be the most OP. But, if you look at the avatars they have, they are fluffy but not really all the great. The dreamer is a perfect example. His avatar is simply not as good as his normal form. But, its fun and fluffy. While other master, like Marcus and Ramos, got much better and have easier requirements to fill before going avatar.

I was playing in a game, using Lilith vs Criid. Lilith just ate her crew up. But, when Criid went avatar, the game was rebalanced and suddenly I had to think alot more about what I'm going to do. I just couldn't rely on my high damage out put to win.

See, I don't necessarily agree. Sonnia has a solid avatar, but she is one of the few. I reason that you will only see ~5-6 of the avatars ever used in the competitive setting with any degree of regularity. I agree that the avatars are an attempt to balance the game, but it really only helped a few of them.

[sephiroa]

See, I don't necessarily agree. Sonnia has a solid avatar, but she is one of the few. I reason that you will only see ~5-6 of the avatars ever used in the competitive setting with any degree of regularity. I agree that the avatars are an attempt to balance the game, but it really only helped a few of them.

sonnia, marcus, nicodem, ramos, (maybe) rasputina, those are all very strong avatars,

my favorite, ramos, he became realy strong, in a tourny i will use him,

[Dumb Luck]

sonnia, marcus, nicodem, ramos, (maybe) rasputina, those are all very strong avatars,

my favorite, ramos, he became realy strong, in a tourny i will use him,

Don't forget Somer. Nine times out of ten you'll see him on the table.

[karn987]

Twisting Fates certainly helped bring things more into line though, that you can't deny. But stop comparing things to the Dreamer! Seriously. We know already, he has issues. Stop putting everything up and comparing it to them. If you want a more accurate comparison, compare Nico to Lilith. Those two are on the same level now and have been for some time I think. Don't compare to the edge cases, thats why they are called edge cases and curve busters. All you serve to do is recycle the same points for 20 pages and let us all know, yet again, that the edge cases are infact edge cases. Basically, it does no one any good where as comparing it to the rest could actually be benificial and bring up new points to discuss.

The Schemes were also designed to be fun and fluffy to some extent. The the Faction and Master ones didn't have to be balanced against each other. It's why we have the generic schemes, thats your balance point. The Faction ones tend to me close to the same level as each other and then the Master ones are all over the place. But like Wyrd always likes to do, fluff translates straight into rules in many cases and the Master Schemes are one of them.

The point of the game is to be FUN. This is not a hyper balanced game where you can nit pick any part of it and find it perfectly balanced. This is not a game built for that or even a game built for hyper competitive play. It is a fluff driven game designed to be FUN and interesting to the players. Perspective on this is lost almost the instant a thread like this comes into being and nearly everyone forgets this.

This is Wyrd everyone... not GW, not PP, not SG or GP9 etc. They have their own style and own way of approaching things that often doesn't fit in the mold. Malifaux is simply not that kind of game and I hope it never becomes that kind of game. It has issues, we all know and accept this and yet still love the game. Wyrd will take care of them when they can and if they believe them to be real problems. But this will never be the hyper balanced game this thread, and many other threads try to press upon it.

Edited September 28, 2011 by karn987

[Fetid Strumpet]

But see Karn, there are a few things there with your post. Firstly you are one of the only people who plays the NB who even will admit there is an issue with the Dreamer. It is exceptionally frustrating when you see a master capable of wiping out your entire crew on the first turn of the game and when you begin to say "Hey wait a sec that's not Fai..." it feels like you instantly get shouted down "There is no problem! Dreamer is Fine! L2P N00B!"

Now we might disagree to the extent that the fixes should happen, but one of the Reasons that I feel it should happen is that I really like this game, and this kind of thing is bad for its survival. For two reasons.

Firstly it is a detriment to maintaining new players. If two people get into the game and one of them picks dreamer, and someone else picks a different master, one not on the same level or has the same options as the Dreamer you have a situation that I've seen happen across alot of games. Once the Dreamer player learns the tricks he can do and he or she begins to beat the snot out of his opponent they both go "Cool! This is awesome!" and then the other player goes "OK what is the awesome thing my guy can do?" and then he finds out

"You can summon Spiders under the right conditions! Awesome right?"

". . ."

I've seen too many games where people have options where one is so strong that it just doesn't seem fun to play for the casual player unless they play that one option. That kind of play experience just shouldn't exist in the game.

Now if it is your contention that things don't need to be balanced as well as is possible because the game is intended to just be fun then that can be a reasonable expectation. However if that is your contention then why even have a tournament system? If the tourney is meant to gage the skill level of the players involved but the factions aren't balanced against each other (a contention you inherently would seem to agree with if you admit that the faction specific schemes aren't balanced against each other) then what purpose does the tournament serve? Don't have a tournament just advertise for open play.

But also to that extent why even have play testing? If the game is just for fun and is not meant to be as balanced as it can be (which perfect balance I'll admit is never going to happen in any system where players have different options) then nothing can be considered OP. Wyrd should just save themselves the time it takes and payroll it burns to go over the data and just release whatever they think is fun.

[Lucidicide]

But also to that extent why even have play testing? If the game is just for fun and is not meant to be as balanced as it can be (which perfect balance I'll admit is never going to happen in any system where players have different options) then nothing can be considered OP. Wyrd should just save themselves the time it takes and payroll it burns to go over the data and just release whatever they think is fun.

Just a note that I think everyone can agree this is a ridiculous argument/statement, and it really just distracts from the discussion. You have valid points, but this one takes away from your overall argument.

I've seen too many games where people have options where one is so strong that it just doesn't seem fun to play for the casual player unless they play that one option. That kind of play experience just shouldn't exist in the game.

Honestly, I have only seen a few games like this. Overall, I find that most players match up naturally on a few levels, and therefore this isn't an issue. I would contend that most gamers recognize that yes, against this ONE option I really only have one option myself. This might not be fun for one side of the equation, but in my experience neither side finds it enjoyable. I have not met a Dreamer player yet who plays the Dreamer every game and/or always hires the same crew and takes the same strategies and schemes.

Although it is certainly possible you'll have that one person who takes the awesome list of win, they are limiting themselves, and sometimes you might have to limit yourself to defeat them. This only becomes a particular problem if that is the only opponent you have. I would argue it's not even a problem in a tournament because everyone is trying to make that one list. It's unfortunate if the Dreamer comes out on top in that equation, but from what I've seen, that's not the case.

So I guess what I'm saying is that, under a very specific circumstance, the Dreamer becomes a huge issue. That circumstance is a competitive player who always fields the same thing who, through lack of player base, you find yourself playing repeatedly.

As I run demos weekly and would never ever play the Dreamer against a new player, I have not yet found a single newcomer to the game who hasn't found the game fun through lack of options. And I have not heard anyone in particular cry overpowered about anything (at least by their second time playing it). But, I sort of control the gaming at the store I'm at, and I've helped ensure it doesn't get to that point.

[Cunning]

I think the point is that the Dreamer is more powerful than pretty much any other master. Yes there are ways to beat him and yes it's often not an issue because people don't use him but wouldn't it be better if he wasn't so overpowered? I think it's perfectly reasonable for Wyrd to balance all factions(to a certain extent, perfect balance is unlikely) within the scope of the fluff and I think that the game as a whole will be more enjoyable for it(not that it isn't already awesome).

Anyway. This is a thread about Alp bombs and how to beat them. Back on topic we go...

[Fetid Strumpet]

True. Sorry for the Thread Jacking. I can't comment too much on Alps as I don't have much direct experience with them. The only issue I have with them is that they are a form of passive winning. Their presence on the board is what kills you rather than anything they actively have to do and I'm not a fan of that design philosophy.

Really against the Alp bomb you either brought enough the correct models at the beginning of the game with enough wounds to survive activating, and good enough in combat to 100% kill an alp with a focused Strike or some other option, and positioned yourself appropriately at the beginning of the game or you will lose. You won't necessarily win if you did the correct things, but you will lose if you didn't.

[Lucidicide]

The only issue I have with them is that they are a form of passive winning.

Quoted for truth. Alps are by far the most effective model in the game because they don't even need to use AP to do their thing. Their existence alone is enough.

[Necromorph]

@ Karn @ Fetid

I have noticed this issue of "Fun" vs. "Balance" and we've discussed it in other forms in different threads, but really it's a tough situation. If you have any game, be it a ttg, ccg, video game, sport, contest, w/e...then you're going to have people be competitive about it, it's just going to happen eventually. You can't tell people "Just have fun, though!", that doesn't work, and you can't tell people how they should feel about something. (Hypothetical situation incoming*) If the game were to remain the way it is, and wyrd came out and said that they weren't going to change anything balance wise in the game, then the competitive players would have 2 choices...Jump on the bandwagon and play the most OP masters, or Quit the Game.

Not everyone has the same personality, playstyle or attitude toward gaming on any level, and telling people that take it seriously to "chill out" because it's a "fun game" isn't going to work. As for fun, many of the top masters (Dreamer, Pandora, and Hamelin in my opinion, to name a few) are just downright demoralizing to play against when used by a skilled player. They all have mechanics that just straight up make opponents feel helpless and want to throw their hands up. They can all be beaten, but the lists capable of doing that are still going to have some close, tense games...there is no way to truly "turn the tables" on such masters (unless ofc you're using another top 5 master). Losing like that and feeling that helpless in a game is never fun, and even if you don't care one way or the other, it's still going to leave a sour taste..."Well that was lame, wtf am I supposed to do about that?" kind of a situation.

Hell, people at my LGC hate Hamelin so much that I can't even get people to play me when I use him. It's gotten to the point where I have to bribe my friends with beer and taco bell to even consider playing against my Hamelin crew, and that's not fun for either me or my friends. No, true balance will never be achieved, and in a game that's designed around faction balance, it's ok to have a couple OP masters so long as they're evenly distributed, but there doesn't need to be masters that are so over the top and unbalanced that they scare people away from them or the game itself.

[Necromorph]

Quoted for truth. Alps are by far the most effective model in the game because they don't even need to use AP to do their thing. Their existence alone is enough.

Yes, now that my rant is over, back on topic, haha.

While we've discussed quite a bit how to beat the alps, I've noticed a general issue that I think they need to watch a bit. Anything that causes unavoidable damage needs to be very carefully evaluated. I think alps take it to another degree and that is why we have such an issue, but there are others. Electrical creations (yes there's a reason they're unique, haha), sonnia's avatar pushing flame pillars into units, and somer's pull my finger...though I'd never argue that gremlins are OP, thus I won't ever complain that PmF is broken (this all off the top of my head). As I mentioned in the rant, things that are designed to demoralize opponents and create helpless situations are never fun to play against. In anything though, we have at least come up with some decent ways to deal with the Alp bomb, which is a good start.

[Lucidicide]

Yes, now that my rant is over, back on topic, haha.

While we've discussed quite a bit how to beat the alps, I've noticed a general issue that I think they need to watch a bit. Anything that causes unavoidable damage needs to be very carefully evaluated. I think alps take it to another degree and that is why we have such an issue, but there are others. Electrical creations (yes there's a reason they're unique, haha), sonnia's avatar pushing flame pillars into units, and somer's pull my finger...though I'd never argue that gremlins are OP, thus I won't ever complain that PmF is broken (this all off the top of my head). As I mentioned in the rant, things that are designed to demoralize opponents and create helpless situations are never fun to play against. In anything though, we have at least come up with some decent ways to deal with the Alp bomb, which is a good start.

I definitely think the Alp Bomb gets its own category. For example, when Witchlings blow up with Sonnia (or Gamin for Tina, etc), it's unavoidable... if you're right next to the model. But people know that's coming, and can try to interact with those models in a certain way beforehand.

Alps generally aren't "coming". Because of how the Dreamer works, you either stop the Dreamer from dumping his crew on your head, or Alps on there. There is nothing you can do to or about Alps themselves the way the strategy goes. It's the Dreamer you have to deal with, and since he's a Master, it's not exactly an easy solution.

That said, the full bomb is definitely a one trick pony, and there are models that handle it pretty well overall. The real trick is whether you know you'll be going up against it. But honestly, even if you don't, if you know you are fighting Neverborn... be prepared for Wp duels. Many things that help against Alps will help against a lot of Neverborn, imo.

[Q'iq'el]

Alps generally aren't "coming". Because of how the Dreamer works, you either stop the Dreamer from dumping his crew on your head, or Alps on there. There is nothing you can do to or about Alps themselves the way the strategy goes.

This isn't entirely true though, and I've been trying to point that out several times now.

If an Ice Gamin is next to your minion, it will explode if you kill it and it may be killed by the opponent to explode, which you can do nothing about.

But you can position yourself to not end up close to the Gamin.

This is essentially the same level of choice you are given with Alps. The bombed model will be damaged only in two cases:

- It activates after it's bombed & loses the Wp duel.

- an activation later someone applies slow to it.

That's of course besides the effects related to making strike or walk actions.

So your defense is either to whisk the model away in the next activation with means other than activation/movement (Colette can do it sacrificing a Dove, for example), or you use that one activation to destroy Alps and remove the bomb. And they are quite vulnerable.

So yes, you still can counter the bomb just like you counter the gamin. The difference is that you counter the gamin with movement and you counter the Alp bomb with activation order and brute force.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Lucidicide]

Fair enough, but the point is that you can position yourself prior to the Gamin getting in melee with you, and you can try to leave melee after (assuming you have time). With Alps, that is much less the case, as the Dreamer's superior movement and ability to put them all on top of a model means that it is significantly harder to position yourself beforehand.

Additionally, you can easily activate a model next to a Gamin and try to walk away (you might fail, of course). The simple act of activating the Alp'd model causes the problem.

I agree with you that there are counters. However, not every list has the ability to move models without that model activating, and not every list has a way to destroy multiple Alps that are engaged in melee.

That said, it does come down to what models you bring and what tactics you employ... I do think that Alps have a unique passive strength that, coupled with the Dreamer, provides a formidable barrier. I do not by any means think that barrier is insurmountable or uncounterable.

There are so many unique situations that can come up with Alps (and anything, really) that providing a simple answer to "the Alp problem" is not going to be an easy one. As this thread shows, there are plenty who do not experience the Alp problem at all. This shows that it is certainly something that people can (and do) deal with. But as if everything in Malifaux, a simple "take X model" will not solve the problem for you. If so, we'd be getting the argument that X is broken instead.

[Buhallin]

You don't have to take a specific model to deal with Alps. You need to provide one of two capabilities:

1. The ability to move models outside their activation

2. The ability to deal with large numbers of squishy models

Both of these are core capabilities that any crew needs to consider bringing to the table. Neither is unique to dealing with the Alp Bomb, and both are available within every faction.

Certainly, Alps kill you in an annoying manner, same as Pandora. But seriously, what do you expect when your opponent drops 9-15SS worth of models on a single target?

[Fetid Strumpet]

But seriously, what do you expect when your opponent drops 9-15SS worth of models on a single target?

Exactly, and that ability to move an entire crew and pick the target of its choice across the entire space of the board should not exist, or, it should be open to every single crew in the game.

And again we get back to the fact that the alp bomb can be effective at every single scheme and Strategy the Dreamer could have. The crew he is facing MUST bring a list designed from the start to bring the very elements Buhallin lists in order to even survive. It won't mean you WILL survive or win the game, but you will certainly lose if you don't bring them.

Buhallin's argument seems to be that you should bring these models as a matter of course, anytime you play against Neverborn. Well perhaps, but then you aren't bringing models that are geared towards acomplishing what you are supposed to accomplish.

Your list with the ability to deal with swarms of squishy things might then go up against the FILTH list. Or perhaps a Collodi list full of small but not very squishy things that just keep coming back. Or a grow list which pops four young auto-flaying nephilim on you. And this is just examining Crew construction, not even considering what you might be trying to do. What if your strat is claim jump?

Also the fact that sometimes the list is just no fun to play even if it wins all the time is a poor argument against the need to look at re-balancing. If that is your argument then ban the model from competitive play in all cases. I'm personally against banning models, and so I'd be on the side of trying to work out what an acceptable compromise to the issue was.

On the issue of suggested changes,... Perhaps if the Alps ability to dmg you when you activate was reclassified as a (0) Aura that they would have to put up. The models would not be useless as they could all pop their auras, and be buried for a pop out later in the turn or next turn, but it wouldn't be something that just worked all the time without chance of failure?

[karn987]

Exactly, and that ability to move an entire crew and pick the target of its choice across the entire space of the board should not exist, or, it should be open to every single crew in the game.

Underline is mine and what Im replying to exactly, but I dont want to cheat it out of context.

Not true. It's called diversity, it's what makes these games interesting. Every crew and faction should NOT have the capacity to do what every other crew and faction can do. Just because its powerful and exists for only 1 crew (which it doesnt, first turn kills are possible through several crews, but at varying levels) does not mean it should be removed or everyone should have it. Remember Strumpet, the problem is not the alpha strike its the severity of it. Or are you going to go after all the Masters/combinations that can do similiar to this? There are quite a few of them and by your own words, you have to be fair.

Yes, I'm trapping you in your own statement and I know its a jerk move. But read over what you said again. This is diversity and uniqueness in action but the potential power level of it is out of control. The Dreamers concept is great! It has so many other interesting implications and amazing gameplay opportunities it's no wonder this was missed during the PT. The problem is the full effect of it all is to much.

And again we get back to the fact that the alp bomb can be effective at every single scheme and Strategy the Dreamer could have. The crew he is facing MUST bring a list designed from the start to bring the very elements Buhallin lists in order to even survive. It won't mean you WILL survive or win the game, but you will certainly lose if you don't bring them.

Absolutely incorrect. You can win without bringing just those elements, you can win with using your head. Those elements he described are COMMON in many lists to the point where having one or two of them is more common then not. Why? Because they are some of the best things in the game to bring in your list.

Also need I remind you that there are several minions out there for other masters that are effective in every single scheme and strategy a master could have? Thats probably true as often as it's not! There aren't actually that many specialist models in the game that they lose serious use in different strategies and schemes. How is this a knock against the Dreamer? Should every Master now have their minions watered down so they don't fit this criteria which your calling out as a problem?

Lets look at Steampunk Abominations, a model that I would say is effective in every single Strat and Scheme Leveticus could have. Look at the Peacekeeper for Hoffman, or Corphyee for Colette, Young for Lilith, Death Marshals for guild in general and on and on.

Buhallin's argument seems to be that you should bring these models as a matter of course, anytime you play against Neverborn. Well perhaps, but then you aren't bringing models that are geared towards acomplishing what you are supposed to accomplish.

Or are you? What models are so hyper specialized in those criteria that they can not be used to also achieve your schemes and starategies? By sheer virtue of it being significant, or having movement, ar having atleast 1 attack; it can contribute to most of the Schemes and Strategies in the game.

Part of a good game is that you have to make these hard choices. There are very few minions that let you have your cake and eat it to and those tend to cost in the 9+ range EACH. Every model in the game is effective for a number of reasons and has uses accross a multitude of Schemes and Strategies. It seems like your telling us that bringing someone with solid out of activation abilities/actions is a detriment to your ability to achieve schemes and strategies. What Schemes/Strategys requires such insanely specialized models that your average minion can't contribute to it?

Your list with the ability to deal with swarms of squishy things might then go up against the FILTH list. Or perhaps a Collodi list full of small but not very squishy things that just keep coming back. Or a grow list which pops four young auto-flaying nephilim on you. And this is just examining Crew construction, not even considering what you might be trying to do. What if your strat is claim jump?

Remember when I said reacting ot the Dreamer and the Neverborn in general puts you in a position where your more likely to be defeated? This is part of it. If you are so worried about every single little detail that you could possibly come up against, one of two this are going to happen:

1) Your going to figure out that perfect list that can handle them all and then congrats! That is a heck of a feat and a true all-comers list is very rare.

2) You will drive yourself insane and most likely lose most of your enjoyment of the game.

So why worry? Yes, it's good to keep your opponents potential lists in mind when building your own. But your better off keeping your Strats and Schemes in mind and focusing on them and then taking one or two things to help you deal with some of the potential evil you may be up against. If your core strategy for the crew is solid, your already equipped to handle most anything that can come at you. If your doing some obscure style of list, like Sorrow Nukeing then your of course going to run into no-win scenarios or at least hard to win ones.

For example, lets take one of my favorite Masters: Hoffman. His variety of models is good sized but he favors constructs over all else. Now I have my prefered style of playing him where I like to have a Peacekeeper to piggy back on, a Gaurdian for defense. From there I have a variety of other choices! So lets say Im against NB which I know by now, ok so they will have speed on me and generally focus on Melee or odd forums of attack. Well I'll take my Avatar option for versatility, then I'll pack in some SS Miners because of their bury abilities, gives me a lot of options (I think he can take these at least, curse my lack of book at the moment). Then I've still got some points to toss around where I'll look at my strat and schemes and decide how to focus. But those core models I named will serve me well for every single Strat and Scheme.

There you go, I now have a list i will play very confidently against any Neverborn list and rate myself as having atleast a 50% chance of winning. I didn't worry about all the mean things that could happen. I'm chosing to stay mostly with I2I models to deal with lure and obey, high armor to counter their melee prowess, and some tricks to counter whatever they may have.

Can every master do it as well as the next? Nope, and thats the great part about the game. It's variety, not all Masters and crews are the same and some are just more rigid then others. In a game with such complexity as Malifaux, you will never have all the Masters/Crews be able to handle the same situations and match ups as well as each other... but that is the mark of a good game.

Edited September 28, 2011 by karn987

[Math Mathonwy]

Quoted for truth. Alps are by far the most effective model in the game because they don't even need to use AP to do their thing. Their existence alone is enough.

Aye, this is big and no one (else) seems to have mentioned it yet. You can stall by activating all three Alps well out of range of the opponent, then bury them and bomb with them basically anywhere on the battlefield. Those three activations of stalling mean that the opponent is seriously hard pressed to keep their models ready to dismantle the Alp bomb no matter where it lands.

[Math Mathonwy]

Underline is mine and what Im replying to exactly, but I dont want to cheat it out of context.

You say that you kept the context, but then you ignored it in your reply :confused:

All in all it seems that your whole reply was in bad faith and unfair towards Fetid, which is a shame as you're usually very courteous and seem to give the benefit of the doubt in your answers.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Lucidicide]

Not true. It's called diversity, it's what makes these games interesting. Every crew and faction should NOT have the capacity to do what every other crew and faction can do. Just because its powerful and exists for only 1 crew (which it doesnt, first turn kills are possible through several crews, but at varying levels) does not mean it should be removed or everyone should have it. Remember Strumpet, the problem is not the alpha strike its the severity of it. Or are you going to go after all the Masters/combinations that can do similiar to this? There are quite a few of them and by your own words, you have to be fair.

Yes, I'm trapping you in your own statement and I know its a jerk move. But read over what you said again. This is diversity and uniqueness in action but the potential power level of it is out of control. The Dreamers concept is great! It has so many other interesting implications and amazing gameplay opportunities it's no wonder this was missed during the PT. The problem is the full effect of it all is to much.

Agreed. And I would argue that it wasn't missed during the PT.

Absolutely incorrect. You can win without bringing just those elements, you can win with using your head. Those elements he described are COMMON in many lists to the point where having one or two of them is more common then not. Why? Because they are some of the best things in the game to bring in your list.

Also need I remind you that there are several minions out there for other masters that are effective in every single scheme and strategy a master could have? Thats probably true as often as it's not! There aren't actually that many specialist models in the game that they lose serious use in different strategies and schemes. How is this a knock against the Dreamer? Should every Master now have their minions watered down so they don't fit this criteria which your calling out as a problem?

Lets look at Steampunk Abominations, a model that I would say is effective in every single Strat and Scheme Leveticus could have. Look at the Peacekeeper for Hoffman, or Corphyee for Collete, Young for Lilith, Death Marshals for guild in general and on and on.

Agreed. Honestly, what makes the Alp Bomb effective at anything other than killing models is the Dreamer, who honestly makes ALL nightmares effective at Strats and Schemes. He's a strong master! But it is not the Alp Bomb itself that does this.

Or are you? What models are so hyper specialized in those criteria that they can not be used to also achieve your schemes and starategies? By sheer virtue of it being significant, or having movement, ar having atleast 1 attack; it can contribute to most of the Schemes and Strategies in the game.

Part of a good game is that you have to make these hard choices. There are very few minions that let you have your cake and eat it to and those tend to cost in the 9+ range EACH. Every model in the game is effective for a number of reasons and has uses accross a multitude of Schemes and Strategies. It seems like your telling us that bringing someone with solid out of activation abilities/actions is a detriment to your ability to achieve schemes and strategies. What Schemes/Strategys requires such insanely specialized models that your average minion can't contribute to it?

Agreed. Honestly, almost every model can do #2 (deal with large numbers of squishy models), the problem is in HOW you do it. And #1 (movement outside of activation) is an amazingly useful thing regardless of strategy and scheme. I by no means think taking these things is in support of a vs Dreamer or vs Neverborn only fight.

Anyway, yes, the Dreamer + Alps is extremely strong and effective. But yes, there are counters. I do completely understand the frustration, though, and I honestly believe it's something that becomes mitigated based on your opponent(s) and time playing the game. That's a crappy answer, but that doesn't make it less true.

[Lucidicide]

Aye, this is big and no one (else) seems to have mentioned it yet. You can stall by activating all three Alps well out of range of the opponent, then bury them and bomb with them basically anywhere on the battlefield. Those three activations of stalling mean that the opponent is seriously hard pressed to keep their models ready to dismantle the Alp bomb no matter where it lands.

Yes, I don't feel that activation order is necessarily what it takes to defeat the Dreamer. Alps are cheap enough that if you really buy into them, there is very little chance you'll out activate a Dreamer crew.

[Buhallin]

Buhallin's argument seems to be that you should bring these models as a matter of course, anytime you play against Neverborn. Well perhaps, but then you aren't bringing models that are geared towards acomplishing what you are supposed to accomplish.

Actually, my argument is that you should consider bringing these elements as a matter of course, against ANYBODY.

Most factions have a cheap swarm approach, except maybe Guild. Being able to move models outside their activation is always a useful ability.

The point I'm trying to dispute is that you can't beat Alps, or even Neverborn, unless you know they're coming and build specifically for them, thus crippling yourself against all other opponents. The capabilities I describe - which deal with Alps - are capabilities you have to factor into your crew selection. Will blasts be very helpful against a FILTH list? No, but moving other models will be, as separating Nekima from the other shuts it down completely. These are the things you have to evaluate when you build a list.

Bringing the wrong tools to a fight screws you whether it's Neverborn or not. As an Outcast list could be Hamelin's rat swarm or the Vik's/Von Schill elite merc crew, or an Rezzer list could be a McMourning dog swarm or a Kirai Hanged+Rider list. If you guess one and try and plan for it, and guess wrong, you're in trouble. That's why I try to look at filling needs for crew capability, rather than explicit plans. And you know what? There's not a single crew I run that I fear the Alp Bomb, so I must be doing something right.