Pine Box

[Q'iq'el]

In that it makes her just like every other Master? Perhaps that underlying motive of Malifaux doesn't need to apply to every single Master and people who want to have a "normal human" struggling with all the supernatural need a crew too, but that sounds more like Freikorps than Ortegas to me.

[Jonas Albrecht]

In that it makes her just like every other Master? Perhaps that underlying motive of Malifaux doesn't need to apply to every single Master and people who want to have a "normal human" struggling with all the supernatural need a crew too' date=' but that sounds more like Freikorps than Ortegas to me.[/quote']

I'd wager that if Perdita had been released a spell-less Master, no one would have bat an eye. I imagine many people chose her because they thought she was a non-magical crew. That theme does appeal to people. Hell, I've got a spell-less Perdita variant in development.

[Q'iq'el]

Spells are one thing, but there are also abilities like See the Unseen and Anticipation which do point out at this magical side of her. In fact my first impression of her back when I got the book in my hand for the first time, was that she's a character channeling Malifaux' magic into extending her human abilities rather than mastering some new magic - she sees better, she anticipates movements, she's unnaturally fast and at the apex of her abilities, she bends reality with her mind for her shoots to hit.

I'd say to claim it is a non-magical crew would be to go out of one's way to find one such Master among original crews, because her magic wasn't disguised and it wasn't merely a matter of her spells either.

But I can understand there might have been different competing visions for her in the design phase and the testers might have got influenced by those.

[FearLord]

I'd wager that if Perdita had been released a spell-less Master, no one would have bat an eye. I imagine many people chose her because they thought she was a non-magical crew. That theme does appeal to people. Hell, I've got a spell-less Perdita variant in development.

Perhaps, but it is clear Perdita is magically powerful - she has a Ca of 7 which would be considered high (and as powerful as most arcanists)... She certainly isn't "normal" or "non-magical"...

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'd say to claim it is a non-magical crew would be to go out of one's way to find one such Master among original crews, because her magic wasn't disguised and it wasn't merely a matter of her spells either.

It's not a claim that she's non-magical, it's the claim that, uninitiated into Malifaux, you can easily come to the conclusion that she is probably a "Badass Normal". That's what I thought the first time I stumbled across the Malifaux booth at GenCon.

Perhaps, but it is clear Perdita is magically powerful - she has a Ca of 7 which would be considered high (and as powerful as most arcanists)... She certainly isn't "normal" or "non-magical"...

Yes, in the finalized version of her, she has a high stat for casting. She ended up as being a magical character.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[mpangelu]

So... how bout them pine boxes.. range good. 0 or 1 ap good. Deathmarshall being 5 points ok...

[Jonas Albrecht]

So... how bout them pine boxes.. range good. 0 or 1 ap good. Deathmarshall being 5 points ok...

I think it's worth doing some houseruling to playtest. I'll try 4ss, Rg 4, (0) action next time we're out playing the Ol' Malifaux.

[Stonedog-7]

Thanks for the advice, will be passing it all on and seeing if the boxes get more use, though i'm mostly seeing it as an emergency button if something like Teddy or a Mature Neph wades into combat against one

[Mawdrigen]

errr... isn't pine box WP duel?... so Teddy and his Immune to Influence say 'Ah No' to that.

[Stonedog-7]

Ah, yeah, likely the case, i'm not a guild player so not too up to scratch on alot of their abilities without having cards in front of me :happypuppet1

[Math Mathonwy]

Really burying your own models is its best use and using marshal as a delivery system.

How does this really work, btw? I mean, it's a (2) action, so first turn you don't move. Second turn, you move, but Marshalls really aren't super fast. So it's only on turn three that you are likely in range of the enemy and then that's only if they don't kill the DM. I feel like I'm missing something very obvious that makes the DMs move faster.

[mpangelu]

How does this really work, btw? I mean, it's a (2) action, so first turn you don't move. Second turn, you move, but Marshalls really aren't super fast. So it's only on turn three that you are likely in range of the enemy and then that's only if they don't kill the DM. I feel like I'm missing something very obvious that makes the DMs move faster.

This isn't usually effective unless your playing with Lucious.. or unless you just really feel like going.. SURPRISE!!!! ... Also a way of helping one model survive longer in combat by making the enemy go after the DM instead. .. really.. just way to situational unless you do the Lucious slingshot.

[96p]

Just remember death marshalls have intractable and cannot be buried or sacrificed.

Also ... pine boxing lady j or executioner and the. use lucious to sling shot them out of deoyment zone. This is especially great of you do sword str first as when she is buried she retaons effects and buffs and the like .

Can't Lucius only slingshot guardsmen ?

[mpangelu]

No, the slingshot is I think "target model".. It may say friendly model meaning Ryle is out, but otherwise it doesn't specify guardsman. His one that he makes someone take a walk or strike action is a elite division or guardsman. And the sniper has to be someone with Elite Division.

[paradox]

Here's the problem with Pine Box:

Marshals are Ca4:rams. Pine Box is CC: 12:crows. You need an 8:crows just to get it off. And a 12 is not terribly hard to resist on WP. Most models WP will be equal or better than the DM cast.

Next, it's a 2 action. In other words, a whole activation. There are so many better ways to spend an activation than blowing out a high card on a model that either A) isn't worth bothering to box, or will simply resist anyway.

Very cool idea. Absolutely crappy execution. It has been consistently the most disappointing game mechanic I have seen in a long time. I just pretend they don't have it now.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Very cool idea. Absolutely crappy execution. It has been consistently the most disappointing game mechanic I have seen in a long time. I just pretend they don't have it now.

I think a lot of this is that Death Marshals ended up being too cheap for their concept. It's always been kinda weird to me that they were 4ss, when they could have been 2 stones more and still allowed Lady J to take three and the Judge for a 25ss game.

[paradox]

I'll disagree.

I think they are fine at 4ss. They just happen to have a worthless ability.

[Jonas Albrecht]

They just happen to have a worthless ability.

Which was overbalanced to bring it inline with their cost. Granted, this is speculation on my part, but I am stumped for another reason why an ability would be so hobbled.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[Q'iq'el]

Very cool idea. Absolutely crappy execution. It has been consistently the most disappointing game mechanic I have seen in a long time. I just pretend they don't have it now.

I think this is because Bury, along with Paralyze, are considered some of the most powerful effects in game. Especially hostile Bury.

Book 1 has almost no such effects. The minions that can apply them easily (like Bête's paralyzing hits) are usually restricted in other ways. Other minions apply these effects on triggers that are hard to pull off.

Book 2 has plenty of Burrying and Paralyzing, though mostly on the masters.

Book 3 is actually introducing a solid range of models immune to Obey, Paralyze and such (not sure about Bury).

If you think about the value of single activation (huge) and the cost of DM (relatively low, esp. for an otherwise strong model), it's obvious Bury is a very situational gimmick, not something they are supposed to use lightly.

If they were a Book 2 or Book 3 minions, they perhaps would be designed better... an extra :crows and a bonus to their Ca, when at least 2 DMs are in b2b contact for example. But for Book 1 models they are already good and I think it may be not very fair to critisize their design by the later models standard.

Perhaps Wyrd will re-work Book 1 models one day, for Malifaux II, but till then there are Book 2 models to get Book 2 level synergies out of.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Jonas Albrecht]

If they were a Book 2 or Book 3 minions, they perhaps would be designed better... an extra :crows and a bonus to their Ca, when at least 2 DMs are in b2b contact for example. But for Book 1 models they are already good and I think it may be not very fair to critisize their design by the later models standard.

I agree that you cannot critisize the designers for getting better at working with the rules, but critiquing models in comparison to later releases is perfectly valid. Malifaux doesn't segregate based on the books, and as those models are competing for the same resource (the soulstones we have to build a crew), they must be able to prove their worth even as the mechanics evolve. If they cannot, they are obsolete.

Perhaps Wyrd will re-work Book 1 models one day' date=' for Malifaux II, but till now there are Book 2 models to get Book 2 level synergies out of.[/quote']

Ah, the second edition. I cannot wait to start having that conversation.

[Storm's Eye]

Death Marshall's are a solid 4 pt. model in my opinion. I like many usually pretend pine box does not exist (although it is in the back of my mind, looking at you rogue necromancy!)

What bothers me is in fluff those coffins define the death marshals. They are depicted using them as oversize clubs, and smashing heads with them. At one point a DM throws his coffin through a wall like a wrecking ball, and acts like its no big deal. That same DM then proceeds to throw his coffin up in the air and shoots it perfectly so that it pops open and falls down on some unfortunate criminal, boxing him.

You know what is not in the fluff? A Death Marshal sent by Lucius walking up to a crowd of outlaws where Lady Justice then leaps out doing somersaults and chopping heads off.

I still like Death Marshalls in fluff and for what they do in game as well. But, i wish fluff and mechanics would match up more in regards their defining attack. Making pine box worth while would not even be hard to do.....

[FearLord]

No, the slingshot is I think "target model".. It may say friendly model meaning Ryle is out, but otherwise it doesn't specify guardsman. His one that he makes someone take a walk or strike action is a elite division or guardsman. And the sniper has to be someone with Elite Division.

It says friendly model, but does not target, so you can still use it on Ryle.

[keiichiro]

What bothers me is in fluff those coffins define the death marshals. They are depicted using them as oversize clubs, and smashing heads with them. At one point a DM throws his coffin through a wall like a wrecking ball, and acts like its no big deal. That same DM then proceeds to throw his coffin up in the air and shoots it perfectly so that it pops open and falls down on some unfortunate criminal, boxing him.

This. A million times.

You know what would simply fix them? Give them the coffin as a usable weapon. Range 1 or 2. Give them a trigger for the coffin, that allows them to, instead of dealing damage, immediately cast Pine Box with a bonus to their CA.

This gives them the fluff of using it as a weapon, the ability to use it "from a distance", and a little better chance of making sure whatever you're trying to put in the box GOES in the box.

I'd pay an extra 2 points for that.

Edited September 6, 2011 by keiichiro

[nilus]

All good points, but personally I don't want to see the change in the current rules set

Its something to consider when Wyrd decides to do a full Malifaux 2nd edition.

[Rockexe]

I agree with the idea that Death Marshals should be using their coffins as weapons. I wouldn't replace their pistols, but maybe it could implemented as a melee weapon with stats similar to:

Pine Box

Rg: 2"

Cb: 5:rams

Dg: 1/2/4

Cb (:rams:rams) Trigger:

After damaging defender with a Pine Box strike, you may cast Pine Box (spell) on defender.

It'd still be unlikely that they'd be boxing things, but at least you'll see it happen every so often that way.