Neverborn Rules Discussion

[Jonas Albrecht]

Otherwise Neverborn have few models that qualify as durable. Ie models with Hard to Wound, Hard to Kill, Armor, Object, Exceptionally high Wds, High Regeneration/self/other healing. Teddy, Juju, and Stitched are perfect examples of this.

75% of the models is not "few". The Neverborn have a pretty wide spread of the abilities you mentioned.

[ProdigalPunk]

But then again, I'm willing to bet a good half the models that have H2W also have recursion mechanics from their Master (or another model). This heavily offsets the fact that they still end up taking damage from it.

I'm sure everyone knows the joy of trying to cut down a Flesh Construct or a Punk Zombie, only to have it get right back up next turn. Or finally killing a Onryu (after Spirit keeps nuking your damage) only to have it to return right away.

Or killing your stitched together, and then having it reactivate and lose all of its downsides to its abilities on the next go around and not getting credit for the kill?

I agree that being able to re-raise models is the saving grace of Rezzers, without a doubt. But it costs actions and nice cards, or soulstones barring nice cards. Do not get me wrong I can make it happen a lot, but in the end, not being dead is better then coming back. Once something dies, then your opponent gets credit for killing it.

[Justin]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I would argue that outcasts are actually the most powerful faction.

What are the arguments about Neverborn?

All of their masters are decent and play incredibly differently, forcing the opponent to make tough choices in list building that may counter one tough NB master but lose to another.

But look at outcasts:

Leveticus, Viktoria, Hamelin, Somer and even Ophelia and Von Schill.

No two play even vaguely alike. Leveticus, Hamelin, and Viktoria are all easily in the top tier of masters, if you know how to use them. Somer is the only one who, arguably, is not. But even he, I think, is largely underestimated by the community because of his performance before book 2 (after which he received a huge boost), his high model count which restricts the number of players who use him and therefor the input we have on him, and his complexity. Even assuming he is not underestimated and he is less powerful than the rest, he works totally differently than the other outcast masters and could do very well against a list that had presumed, say, viktoria would be playing. Also, the strategies that he is good at...he is very good at. He can dump out significant models like nobody's business and, if I knew I had reconnoiter, there is not another master in the game I would reach for before him.

Sorry I spent most of a post talking about outcasts on somer, but I think he is the only outcast master who's power level needs defending. Which says something.

I think the reason we haven't seen more of a showing for them in tournaments is precisely that they do play so differently and vary so widely thematically. And they don't even have any cross over models. So, generally, when a player enters a tournament with outcasts, that's not what they're playing. They're playing Viktoria OR Leveticus OR Somer OR Hamelin. Not all of them.

Hell, outcasts actually have the most leader options since they have two henchmen.

[Jonas Albrecht]

No two play even vaguely alike.

This is true of every faction.

[Justin]

This is true of every faction.

Not really, actually.

At least, they are no where near as wildly different as outcast and neverborn masters are from each other.

And, the other part of the equation is, ALL of those wildly different options are still effective. (example given many times: dreamer and lilith. One from my most recent post: Levy and Viky)

[Jonas Albrecht]

Not really, actually.

At least, they are no where near as wildly different as outcast and neverborn masters are from each other.

And, the other part of the equation is, ALL of those wildly different options are still effective. (example given many times: dreamer and lilith. One from my most recent post: Levy and Viky)

No I stand by this. Even among Ressers, the playstyle is completely different. How is Perdita and C. Hoffman more similar in style than Leve and the Viks? How does Rasputina play like Colette?

Quite frankly, this community does not want to have discussions about the game. It wants to make wild, sweeping, unsubstantiated claims to try and pigeonhole ever idea into their own experience.

We've got characterizations of a Glass Cannon Faction backed up by claims proven wrong at a glance of the books. Why? Because some of you have got it in your heads that there always must be a Glass Cannon Faction. So without even taking a moment to think about it, the conclusion is reached. Whenever those are countered by someone taking the time to look up the information, there's some goal post shifting.

Now you're making a claim that Outcasts have the most varied play-style, and it's happening all over again. I don't think I want to keep being the Critical Thinking Nanny for this forum.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[Justin]

No I stand by this. Even among Ressers, the playstyle is completely different. How is Perdita and C. Hoffman more similar in style than Leve and the Viks? How does Rasputina play like Colette?

Quite frankly, this community does not want to have discussions about the game. It's wants to make wild, sweeping, unsubstantiated claims to try and pigeonhole ever idea into their own experience.

We've got characterizations of a Glass Cannon Faction backed up by claims proven wrong at a glance of the books. Why? Because some of you have got it in your heads that there always must be a Glass Cannon Faction. So without even taking a moment to think about it, the conclusion is reached. Whenever those are countered by someone taking the time to look up the information, there's some goal post shifting.

Now you're making a claim that Outcasts have the most varied play-style, and it's happening all over again. I don't think I want to keep being the Critical Thinking Nanny for this forum.

k, mister angry defensive pants.

For the record I don't agree the glass canon thing, never have, and have stated so. So...ok.

Now then, to the issue at hand.

One of the major (and repeated) arguments that neverborn are the best faction is that their masters have totally different playstyles and that if you prepare for one of them and get another, you're screwed. (Please, please don't make me back this statement up, because we have both been reading these forums and I don't want to have to link you to a bunch of posts we have both already read)

My point is simply: outcasts have the same advantage, and I think it could be argued that they do it as well, or better.

And, for the record, I semi-agree with that particular complaint about neverborn. Say you're playing against guild. You prepare for Lady J and get Perdita. Sure, they do operate entirely differently, but at the end of the day, they will use their combat to hit your defense. You can rest fairly well assured on that. Now say you're playing against neverborn, you expect lilith and get Pandora. You're defending with an entirely different stat.

Now, guild are kind of uniform (and they're supposed to be), so you may say this isn't the best example.

Ok, fair point.

Say you're playing against Arcanists. You expect Colette, you get Marcus. Different, sure. But...at least you're playing against Marcus.

So, while some factions (guild) are more uniform, other factions (arcanists) have equal variation, but not the same power distribution throughout that variation.

Ressers are sort of a wild card. I would argue they're not as weak as everyone says they are. They have some strong masters and good variation in the ways they attack you. But it seems there are a number of people claiming Kirai is the only good tournament option for them, which I disagree with, but I don't really want to get sidetracked on it. However, if you are one of those people who feels Kirai is the only tourny viable master for ressers then, again I present you that Outcasts have an equal number of tournament viable masters to neverborn, all who play wildly differently.

[Jonas Albrecht]

k, mister angry defensive pants.

I can accept that, I'm getting kinda fed up with what passes for discussion around here.

For the record I don't agree the glass canon thing, never have, and have stated so. So...ok.

My post could come across as a direct accusation of you, but it's not. I should emphasize "some" better.

Now then, to the issue at hand.

One of the major (and repeated) arguments that neverborn are the best faction

Let me stop you right there. I have no idea if the Neverborn are too good, or the best faction, or overpowered. I've stayed out of this thread because of that until the Glass Cannon thing reared its malformed head. It seemed like a good a time as any to deal with it.

My point is simply: outcasts have the same advantage, and I think it could be argued that they do it as well, or better.

Then that is your point. Not that Outcasts play the most differently.

You prepare for Lady J and get Perdita. Sure, they do operate entirely differently, but at the end of the day, they will use their combat to hit your defense. You can rest fairly well assured on that. Now say you're playing against neverborn, you expect lilith and get Pandora. You're defending with an entirely different stat.

That is a massive simplification of how they play.

[Justin]

I can accept that, I'm getting kinda fed up with what passes for discussion around here.

You should make your title "The Critical Thinking Nanny" if it will fit. Cause that's kinda awesome.

My post could come across as a direct accusation of you, but it's not. I should emphasize "some" better.

Alrighty.

Let me stop you right there. I have no idea if the Neverborn are too good, or the best faction, or overpowered. I've stayed out of this thread because of that until the Glass Cannon thing reared its malformed head. It seemed like a good a time as any to deal with it.

Fair enough. Along the same vein then, my post was not directed at you.

Then that is your point. Not that Outcasts play the most differently.

Yes. That is my point. I apologize if that was not clear enough in my original post. That outcasts are incredibly varied is a part of my point, as the rest of my conclusions can not follow without it.

That is a massive simplification of how they play.

Yes, it is.

But I stand by the notion that it is far easier to prepare for which Guild crew you are going to face than which outcast or neverborn crew you are going to face.

Sweeping generalization? Probably. But I'm not in the mood to write an essay. (which is rare for me, but my AC is broken and Auction Hunters is on)

[Jonas Albrecht]

... and Auction Hunters is on

Easily the worst crew idea for Malifaux ever.

Or the best.

You should make your title "The Critical Thinking Nanny" if it will fit. Cause that's kinda awesome.

I'd have to get rid of Companion (Tuesday).

I dun wanna do that.

[Justin]

Easily the worst crew idea for Malifaux ever.

Or the best.

"Discard one treasure counter. Gain 5 soulstones."

We lost, sure. But we lost rich.

I'd have to get rid of Companion (Tuesday).

I dun wanna do that.

Oh, I didn't see what your current title was. Fair enough.

Sig then!

[Necromorph]

I must have missed part of the discussion, but I'll throw my 2c in with Lalo, and nothing against you Jonas, I just happen to agree with the core of Lalo's argument.

So, yeah, all masters play different, but their core models will not be the same as often. Would you run an Ice Golem with Colette, no, all smart-assery aside. You can however, run the Twins, stitched, Nekima, Coppelius, etc, with 3/4 if not all of the masters in NB. Then, depending on which master they are used with, the crew plays completely different even with the same / similar core models. If you have a guild list with the same core models, you can guess that they will probably be shooting at you a lot, even if LJ is the master, the crew (barring the occasional model like the executioner) will likely be pew pewing away. With the exception of Kirai, many of the ressers use similar models, and the crews work just about the same (unless you run a ton of belles with seamus, but people expect belles) with the master fulfilling a different role. Kirai is the x-factor for ressers, but thats 1/4 that could throw you off, not the whole faction. Sticking with that line of thinking, if you expected Kirai, and got Nico as a matchup, you may still be able to make it work..."Ok, so the Viks crew with all Magical weapons won't be as effective, but I can use the Viks speed to outmaneuver the slow undead, while Taelor and Johan....blahblahblah," or something along those lines (please noone get hung up on the models I used in that example, they were the first things with Magical Weapons that popped to mind). NB capitalize on those kinds of odd matchups because all of their masters are generally pretty strong and manipulative. If they encounter a slightly off comp, they are much more likely to succeed at cripling a force that isn't positioned to deal with their specific master.

Outcasts are just as varied, but you can't cross over models, so it's a bit of a different examaple. Sure they're just as hard to counter initially, but then again, once the cat's out of the bag as to which master said player is running, there really aren't that many surprises they can throw out.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Just so I can clarify a point, while I do think Neverborn are THE tourney faction at the moment and feel there could be a few tweaks here and there that would bring them more in line my last post was just a reiteration on the fact that I feel the whole "Glass Cannon" argument as a balancing factor for the NB was nonsense. Carry on. =D

[Jonas Albrecht]

So...

Your argument that Outcasts have fewer crossover models. This is objectively true, the Outcasts have a very Balkanized list. It's almost a faction of factions.

Still, that argument gets obfuscated when you start using terms like "most varied". It's an unquantifiable and, frankly, useless distinction.

[Justin]

Outcasts are just as varied, but you can't cross over models, so it's a bit of a different examaple. Sure they're just as hard to counter initially, but then again, once the cat's out of the bag as to which master said player is running, there really aren't that many surprises they can throw out.

But most of these arguments are made assuming that in tournament play you pick a faction, and not a master. And if a player actually has models to support all 4 outcast masters (and can use them all) I think they would be just as, if not more, dangerous than any Neverborn player in that tournament.

[Uncle]

But most of these arguments are made assuming that in tournament play you pick a faction, and not a master. And if a player actually has models to support all 4 outcast masters (and can use them all) I think they would be just as, if not more, dangerous than any Neverborn player in that tournament.

I think it'd be really quite close, but I don't think that's because of how "varied" the lists are. I mean, with Arcanists (nobody's power faction) you have Colette (awesome), 'Tina (magic blasts), Ramos (summoner), and Marcus (Marcus). Very, very different.

The thing is, making a viable crew for Neverborn can almost be a exercise in blind dart-throwing. Any master can be T1 and one is T0 at best (Dreamer). It's just scary.

[Justin]

I think it'd be really quite close, but I don't think that's because of how "varied" the lists are. I mean, with Arcanists (nobody's power faction) you have Colette (awesome), 'Tina (magic blasts), Ramos (summoner), and Marcus (Marcus). Very, very different.

The thing is, making a viable crew for Neverborn can almost be a exercise in blind dart-throwing. Any master can be T1 and one is T0 at best (Dreamer). It's just scary.

How is it that everybody keeps missing my point?

It is because they have a wide variety of play styles all of which are viable.

Both parts of that statement are equally important. It's like I said, "To fly an airplane needs an engine and wings." And everyone comes in all like, "Dude, just an engine won't make an airplane fly. You need lift as well as thrust." And I'm all like, "That's what the $$$$$$$$ing wings are for."

Which might I add, Neverborn also have. (Not wings. Well, some of them. A high level of variation in lists, all of which are viable.)

I think three of the neverborn masters (Dreamer, Lilith, and Pandora) are all Tier 1. Zoraida, I would say probably not. (Not crap by any means, but not tier 1)

Three of the Outcast masters (Levy, Vik, and Hamelin) are also all Tier 1. With Somer being the not so much on that one. (Although, as I have stated, I think he is severely underestimated and probably equivalent to Zoraida in the ranking scale)

So, in essence, I agree with you. I think it would be a very close call. And I think I would probably hand that one to the outcasts, for a lot of reasons I don't feel like going into or defending. But the point is: it is a close call.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Justin

[Jonas Albrecht]

When did the Viks get promoted to Tier 1?

[Justin]

When did the Viks get promoted to Tier 1?

Just now.

We're popping a glass of champagne over here.

Just kidding...you disagree?

They're pretty damn good, and as I recall they have taken a large tournament or two. (And it's telling when a master takes a tournament that is open to factions)

Edit: found it.

Adepticon 2011:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19916

(this, followed by some playing of my own convinced me they are tier 1. I was not thrilled with their power level myself before looking at these results and then digging into them myself. They're hard to play, but if you do it right...you do it right)

Edited August 26, 2011 by Justin

[Bienivrai]

I voted Neverborn are equal to other factions. I believe if you know how they play you can learn their weaknesses and they can be beaten. If I convince myself enough of that I'll eventually will beat the Dreamer and his crew!

[Fetid Strumpet]

Let's step back a second and consider from another angle. I respect the opinion that others have that NB are perfectly balanced against the other crews, but I don't agree. However maybe instead of the generalized discussions we are having we should look at individual comparisons and look at things from a micro instead of macro level. Let's examine just for a moment the Dreamer.

Malifaux is primarily an objective based game, so it would stand to reason that certain masters will have synergies or play styles that favor certain objectives. Could the NB players out there explain which strategies the Dreamer is sub optimal at, and please give reasons for this.

From my perspective there isn't a strategy the Dreamer isn't VERY competitive at. His speed and mobility, not to mention his ability to provide rapid transit for an entire crew of models makes him extremely good at any strategy or scheme that requires him to be at a certain location, or interact with objectives. That same mobility also makes the Dreamer very good at any objective that is kill based, as 99% of the time the Dreamer will dictate to terms and location of the battle.

Add to the fact that the Dreamer in addition to all this has the capability to drop his entire crew directly into melee range of the opposing crew, on the first turn, no matter where the opposing crew is deployed. Even if the opposing crew was deployed on the board edge furthest away from the Dreamer's crew. I have seen multiple games where the Dreamer player tables the opponent on the first turn of the game.

Add this to the fact that in a 35 SS game, for example, the Dreamer can bring 32SS worth of minions into the game and still have 8 SS in his pool, performing essentially as if he had a cache of 5 SS.

Let me state again that I don't believe the Dreamer is broken, but can any NB player sit here and honestly tell me that they think that Nicodem, or Seamus, or McMourning are the equal to that? Even when the best anti-Dreamer advice people who play the dreamer give out is "Be prepared to lose the most important model you have, accept it, plan for it, and move on from it." and that the best way to survive a dreamer assault is to "make certain your models are not all bunched up, and not all spread out, you need to find that perfect middle ground so that if the Dreamer commits to the attack your models you can respond". Even looking at it this way again the battle is being completely dictated by the Dreamer.

Can a NB player please explain rationally to me how everything the Dreamer brings to the table is Balanced in anyway against the other masters in the game? Now again I don't believe the Dreamer is Broken, and if I had my way only one or two small changes would be made to him. In any system where players have multiple different options something is going to be out on the higher end of the power scale and really that's what's going to happen. I also agree with Lalo that fixing power issues is a much more tricky proposition than fixing it in a CCG and so outside of very minor changes I think we are stuck with things as they are until new models or released schemes or strats change the environment. What I would like is just recognition of the fact the NB do get the cookie at the present time.

[Q'iq'el]

But that is not NB or The Dreamer issue, is it? That's the Book 2 design decision which affected almost all factions. Colette is good in almost every Strategy and so is Kirai. I don't know Hoffman, but I understand Hamelin too has no bigger problems with Strategies.

The book 1 assumption was you need to switch the master or at the very last the minions for some Strategies. For some reason, the Book 2 masters are self-contained crews that can do everything, for better or worse.

That of course means the Book 1 masters can compete only in Strategies they are good at. This may be a problem if you assume all the masters should carry exactly same weight in the game. I think that you can collect the Book 1 crews according to the Book 1 design philosophy and the Book 2 crews according to the Book 2 design philosophy and remain equally competitive.

The former means higher financial burden, but I don't think we're even touching that aspect of the hobby when we're asking for the change of the rules of the Book 2 models.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'm not so certain it was a concious shift from needing three Masters to one. What it seems like is there was a decision to create Masters with obvious crew synergy. They're more tweaked, more polished likely because the playtesters got to focus on 5 masters instead of 15.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not so certain it was a concious shift from needing three Masters to one. What it seems like is there was a decision to create Masters with obvious crew synergy. They're more tweaked, more polished likely because the playtesters got to focus on 5 masters instead of 15.

Obvious synergy isn't the only factor here. Book 2 masters join speed, survivability and synergy into one package and don't need, all in all, Book 1 minions to adapt to different scenarios. Hamelin is slower, but approaches the battle somewhat differently. The resulting crews are good in all or almost all strategies (even if Colette isn't perfect for Slaughter, she still can do it on par with most Book 1 masters).

I don't think it was an effort to create more synergies alone that caused it, I think it was the experience from the first year of the game, which allowed the designers to go further and create masters, in a way, in response to how people play the game. In other words, they were simply designed better.

It's enough to notice, that after one year of Book 2 we've seen only small amount of changes on the model cards. Almost all Book 1 cards had to be reworked in one way or another. That's prior experience positively affecting quality of design.

I think, personally, that Book 2 models and masters are balanced in general and highly successful (in terms of design quality). On the other hand I suspect the playerbase isn't making clear distinction in how game plays for the Book 1 masters and what's the difference between the Book 1 and the Book2.

For the last 2 years I've never stopped adding models to my Lilith and Nicodem crews - I have 14+ Neverborn minions (mostly Nephilim) and 20+ Resurrectionist minions. I've been doing it, because I need these models to remain competitive and continue winning against both older masters (the owners obviously add to their crews too) and the new masters.

To field a second master in each of the crews, I'd probably have to add 6~10 minions (I'm thinking about taking Molly for Rezzers and getting Pandora or Zoraida at one point for NB).

On the other hand I have Colette and 11 minions for her and I'm not even thinking about getting other Arcanists. Maybe Joss and the Book 3 stuff, but not another master.

I think this difference in the burden laid on the player is the real reason for frustration with Book 2 masters. I also think that The Dreamer crew stands out in popularity not only because of its raw power, but also because NE LCB and all the hype - for the last year The Dreamer was the face of Malifaux, just like Rotten Belles and Seamus were the face of Malifaux (and extremely popular models) in the first year of the game.

But I don't think that difference is causing an actual in-game balance issues. Once Nicodem, Perdita or Rasputina player gets his secondary master, gets all the extra minions and reaches the point at which he can take on any Strategy, he is not worse off than the Book 2 player.

Obviously, more minions and masters mean there's more to learn too. This is human factor which have a secondary effect on the perception of the game balance - if you stick with one crew all the time, aren't you more likely to get good faster?

Edited August 26, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Sliver Chocobo]

I disagree on the alps - rare 3. I think it goes against their design ethos, which is cheap summonable units. Also it will really annoy people that have brought 2 packs. Upping their cost to 4ss has similar issues. If you were going to bring them inline I would have a look at their abilities. That's if they do need bringing in line.

Alps need to be neffed badly, last time I played them, they killed my Lilith on the first turn and there was nothing I could do about it