Let's talk Malifaux

[Dumb Luck]

Dumb Luck though is frikkin' ace!

Must say Jonas, I love reading your posts alongside that new avatar. So creepy!

[Jonas Albrecht]

Now back to Critical strike if you look at the Ortega's they are all ranged and there low output is 2 I think across the board so to critical strike they have to give up any other triggers and they are a straight damage crew. They have no real tricks other then raw damage. Same with the Hoff, he doesn't have the speed to get there himself as much so he has to attack through other models and the critical strike is just showing what masters are supposed to be able to do.

If guild doesn't have the damage output they are worse then they are at the moment, they don't have movement they don't have any terrifying, they are almost all living. They aren't all that survivable, they are high damage average cost. So I don't mind that as I said before.

Von Schill also has Brutal.

Balancing the Guild around a mechanic that launches itself over much of the game's assumptions was a bad decision. At double Rams, Perdita should not be able to default to doing more damage than her normal Peacebringer moderate on a Cb-Df tie. That's my issue. It takes the notions of damage flips out of the game almost entirely. The Guild could have been high damage without resorting to CS.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Must say Jonas, I love reading your posts alongside that new avatar. So creepy!

It's my default facial expression. Just ask Tuesday.

[Mentat_Canis]

Von Schill also has Brutal.

Balancing the Guild around a mechanic that launches itself over much of the game's assumptions was a bad decision. At double Rams, Perdita should not be able to default to doing more damage than her normal Peacebringer moderate on a Cb-Df tie. That's my issue. It takes the notions of damage flips out of the game almost entirely. The Guild could have been high damage without resorting to CS.

I haven't read up on Von Schill and I am not disagree with you I was just saying why they have it. I am someone who with most of my Lilith lists really uses fly which augments the Nephilum damage so I understand how helpful a damage trigger can be. I think your beef and if I am wrong that's ok but you don't understand why a model has a built in ram for critical when its the only trigger because why not just add a point of damage to the weapon and I understand that. As for Perdita They give her the Critical strike because most masters are 3/4/6 so if she takes the crit she is there but if she wants some card manipulation her damage is quite poor.

[Borzag]

Minor one for me, and it's probably been answered elsewhere, but....

Scavenger keeping its ability to generate Counters while Graverobber lost it. What's with that?

May just be my local meta, but when I'm running my main crew (Nico) I have to generate all my counters as the most likely opponents are Spirits or Constructs. The other side is flush with them. Makes life more than a bit difficult.

Now I can understand why it was removed from GR, as it made things too easy for McM and Nicodem (Seamus less so) but the same applies to Ramos & the Hoff, and this wasn't rectified. Ah well, still like the minis and my counters are sweet so I'll deal with it.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Minor one for me, and it's probably been answered elsewhere, but....

Scavenger keeping its ability to generate Counters while Graverobber lost it. What's with that?

May just be my local meta, but when I'm running my main crew (Nico) I have to generate all my counters as the most likely opponents are Spirits or Constructs. The other side is flush with them. Makes life more than a bit difficult.

Now I can understand why it was removed from GR, as it made things too easy for McM and Nicodem (Seamus less so) but the same applies to Ramos & the Hoff, and this wasn't rectified. Ah well, still like the minis and my counters are sweet so I'll deal with it.

I think both Scavengers and Graverobbers should have better means for generating their respective currencies, but I hoped to have this discussion much later.

[Atherzon]

oh, its only a 1 action in my rules manual. I guess I have rules manual version 1.

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Edit - so in that case, he is four inches closer to the center. If abuela gets off that third obey he is still only 8 inches away from my deployment zone on the first activation of the first turn, hamelin pending.

If you replace you generic family member with a pair of Guild Hounds, you can get the counter within about 4" of your DZ.

1. Move one Guild Hound to within about 3" of the Treasure.

2. Obey the second Guild Hound to within 3" of the first one.

3. Move the second Guild Hound into B2B with the treasure and (2) Interact to pick it up.

4. Double Obey the Treasure-carrying Guild Hound, preferably ending in B2B with Perdita or another model that will carry it for the rest of the game in case it drops it before being able to move again or you want to pass it off early in the next turn.

That's not far from your DZ and far enough away that most lists won't be able to catch up to you before you can get away. Also, it only leaves you overextended with a single Guild Hound.

[Atherzon]

Jonas, would you be okay if the models that have the required Ram on there Cb for Critical Strike had their damage increased by one and the Ram removed from their Cb?

That would actually benefit them because flipping a Ram would still give the +1 to damage and they could use other triggers, as well. Also, they would not be susceptible to effects that remove suits from their stats.

I just don't see the problem with Critical Strike if you think of it as a static damage boost with some drawbacks.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Jonas, would you be okay if the models that have the required Ram on there Cb for Critical Strike had their damage increased by one and the Ram removed from their Cb?

That would actually benefit them because flipping a Ram would still give the +1 to damage and they could use other triggers, as well. Also, they would not be susceptible to effects that remove suits from their stats.

I just don't see the problem with Critical Strike if you think of it as a static damage boost with some drawbacks.

I think bonuses to Damage are huge. Even +1.

But, if you absolutely must do Critical Strike, Double Ram for +1 damage is about the best way you can do it.

[Atherzon]

Do consider normal Peacebringer damage 3/4/6 instead of 2/3/5 too strong for a four point model (i.e. the Death Marshal)? Because, barring some shenanigans, that is what it amounts to.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Do consider normal Peacebringer damage 3/4/6 instead of 2/3/5 too strong for a four point model (i.e. the Death Marshal)? Because, barring some shenanigans, that is what it amounts to.

I consider 2/3/5 rather fine for most of the models that have it as their ranged Damage track.

[Fog]

I'd like to hear more about this Def 3 thing.

Critical Strike always did sit wrong with me, but I could never put my finger on it. Brutal never bothered me much because it's not as prolific.

The gravedigger vs scavenger debate is easy: they didn't print 2pt units with scavenger and the ability to pass off tokens as a zero action.

I personally detest Conduit on the voodoo doll--automatic 2 dmg per turn, no resist, forever because you got line of sight digs at me.

Far too few models are Living.

Firing into melee can take far too many flips and the shot is entirely random.

[Atherzon]

I consider 2/3/5 rather fine for most of the models that have it as their ranged Damage track.

I find it hard to disagree with that, and thinking about Critical Strike giving them a 3/4/6 damage track makes me understand your point a little more. That's seems quite powerful for a 4 pt model with range of 10" and an unmodified Cb of 5.

However, if the model's damage track is designed to take into account the natural +1 damage from Critical Strike (which I assume happened in design), then the only difference between a model with a 2/3/5 damage track with Critical Strike and the required Ram and a model with a 3/4/6 damage track, is that the model with Critical Strike may have to make a tough choice if it has other useful triggers.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'd like to hear more about this Def 3 thing.

As you approach 1, the ability to flip defense in your favor becomes less and less possible. Df 3 is where it really starts to become noticeable, and even the highest cards in the game don't do enough to prevent getting hit. I'll post the math when I'm done.

[Atherzon]

One of my favorite mechanics in Malifaux when compared to other mini games is the use of the deck and hand.

If I roll a d6, I have a 16.7% chance of rolling a 6. If I roll it again, I have the same chance of rolling a 6.

However, if I need a 7+ of Masks to cast a spell, then the chance of me getting that card depends on what is in my hand and what is in my discard pile. If I fail to flip the needed the 7+ of Masks then I have a slightly better chance of doing it with the next action (assuming there are any more left in my deck). In summary, I enjoy the dynamic nature of the odds in this game as opposed to the static nature of odds in a dice game. Your bad flips early in a turn increase you chances of good flips later in the turn.

Also, the hand replaces some of the chance of a dice game with an the ability to strategically use resources. There's still randomness, but you have a bit more control.

[Jonas Albrecht]

One of my favorite mechanics in Malifaux when compared to other mini games is the use of the deck and hand.

If I roll a d6, I have a 16.7% chance of rolling a 6. If I roll it again, I have the same chance of rolling a 6.

However, if I need a 7+ of Masks to cast a spell, then the chance of me getting that card depends on what is in my hand and what is in my discard pile. If I fail to flip the needed the 7+ of Masks then I have a slightly better chance of doing it with the next action (assuming there are any more left in my deck). In summary, I enjoy the dynamic nature of the odds in this game as opposed to the static nature of odds in a dice game. Your bad flips early in a turn increase you chances of good flips later in the turn.

Also, the hand replaces some of the chance of a dice game with an the ability to strategically use resources. There's still randomness, but you have a bit more control.

Agreed. The mutability of the card deck is one of the most enjoyable things about Malifaux.

[Q'iq'el]

Whenever you see a limitation on the capabilities of your crew, chances are this is for balance reasons, not because the designers want the other team to be Overpowered.

Nicodem has always been one of the most powerful masters in the game. His summoning abilities are plain out scary. He used to be considered unbeatable back, when his minions could dig up several counters every turn. Some time after this ability has been removed, Exhume has been greatly improved. With Molly around, Nicodem can easily field two models capable of casting Exhume.

Another observation I have: The discussion of balance in the internet usually revolve around the opposition of "what I think my opponents can do" against of "what my team cannot do" attitude. Opponents always have the best cards and all the combos go smoothly, we always have the stupid rules, limits and bad hand to work around.

Realistically (and I'm speaking about my own experience only - with both players being good at playing objectives), Nicodem is killing 2~3 models per game, when he is winning. Slaughter being an exception perhaps. That's 2~6 counters depending on models. A non-dog list will likely drop around 3~4 counters (that is, the counters from Nicodem's minions dying) and there are 2~3 more Mortimer brings (could do more, but since Nicodem can Reanimate only so many minions per turn, it doesn't make sense to dig for more when there's ample supply on the table).

There are Control Hand requirements behind Reanimate and there are other actions Nicodem must take to win (Rigor Mortis, Decay, Fog and some walking). Realistically it's hard to see more than 5~6 Reanimates per game, unless it's a Dogburger factory.

So with just the counters his own crew drops, and the Mortimer's Exhume, Nicodem is already close to his Reanimating limit. The opposing team dropping counters in turn 3~4 allows him to go overboard for 2 turns or so and try to overwhelm his opponent, but that comes at the cost of not damaging the opponent and not healing own troops... and it's relying on the random factors, such as Control Hand, Soulstone flips etc.

In other words, conservative estimate is that Nicodem doesn't need any counters from the opponent crew at all, even when he doesn't bring dogs. When these counters do drop, they are a bonus and great way to get some extra Mindless Zombies, but they are not necessary to win.

Is a non-living crew really all that imbalanced against Nicodem? Or is it a "perfect scenario" non-living crew vs. "worst scenario" Nicodem that people are worried about?

I guess my point is, trying to stick with the theme, limitations and unfairness are in the eye of the beholder and not always related to real problems with the game mechanics.

As far as my personal concerns, I think Malifaux is nearing the tipping point of its mechancis getting too complex. I'm not an advocate of simple games - in fact I think the games of this kind are considerably more successful when there's a challenge to master the rules and the players see clear improvement in their game as they put effort into it.

On the other hand, Malifaux is clearly reaching the point where a semi-competitive player, or even a quite competitive one, cannot tell what his opponent may do, unless he played that crew and master extensively before. There are many combinations, a plethora of unique rules, talents and spells and so many synergies, it's nearly impossible to remember them all. The objective oriented gameplay does help a little, but it's in danger of getting out of control. I understand the need for the game to grow, but perhaps that grow can be accompanied with unification of the rules?

Edited August 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[dgraz]

As far as my personal concerns, I think Malifaux is nearing the tipping point of its mechancis getting too complex.

I have heard some people complain that the game is too complex because of all the different rules. I agree that there is a lot to it. But my response is, I have 6 models on the board and they all do something different, WH Fantasy you have 10 different units on the board, plus characters - some units may be duplicates, but most will be different, so what is the difference?

I understand the need for the game to grow, but perhaps that grow can be accompanied with unification of the rules?

NOOOOO!! NONONONO!! A thousand times NO!

This is one of the big reasons why I can't bring myself to play PP anymore. I used to really like the game and had a massive Troll list. Everything was different and unique. Then PP did two really bad things IMO.

They decided to change game mechanics to sell more models - the game was originally designed as a rock'em sock'em robot thing with big robots demolishing each other...now so many people call the game infantrymachine - because infantry costs more money to field the same amount of points.

Then they "unified" the rules. Now everything is so similar. A lot of the flavor that attracted me to the game is gone. When everyone is virtually the same thing, why bother playing something else? because they look different? Obviously I'm over-exaggerating a bit, but this is a very real situation. A pawn is a pawn no matter how you dress it up and a queen is still a queen.

On to my 'Talk Malifaux' opinion... One of my favorite mechanics is crew selection and where it is in the game set-up. It is so much more than just being able to tailor a list to suit your strategy. This is the part of the game (right up front) that in my opinion renders all arguments about certain Masters being better than others moot. My Hoffman might be better than your Ramos, but I don't know you're bringing Ramos. What happens when you choose Marcus and run circles around me?

With all things being equal....I own everything Guild, you own everything Arcanist and we're fairly equal in intelligence......it isn't possible for me to create a list to beat you. I don't know what I'm going to see. All I can do is create a list that I think will be able to complete my strategy.

[Q'iq'el]

I have heard some people complain that the game is too complex because of all the different rules. I agree that there is a lot to it. But my response is, I have 6 models on the board and they all do something different, WH Fantasy you have 10 different units on the board, plus characters - some units may be duplicates, but most will be different, so what is the difference?

A Fantasy army has perhaps 3 or 4 unique rules. Then there is about 1~2 special rules on the characters, you have to be mindful of and the magic items. In recent edition the number of magic items is getting greatly reduced.

In Malifaux every model has multiple unique rules and you have to worry about synergies.

I don't complain about it, I like it... but I also want new players and I want the game to not be hard work to remain in the loop.

We're already at the stage, where introducing a new player to the game is a difficult task - it's a reality. It's a matter of having to buy Rules Manual, starter box and multiple models to start, when it used to be Book 1 and the starter box a bit over 1 year ago. It's a matter of having to own all 3 books (100$ on that alone) to learn your opponents and prepare for competitive playing. And worst of all, it's a matter of assimilating all these special rules in one go. It's been easy on me, as I learned the new models as they came out.

For a new player every expansion makes it harder to jump in.

NOOOOO!! NONONONO!! A thousand times NO!

This is one of the big reasons why I can't bring myself to play PP anymore. I used to really like the game and had a massive Troll list. Everything was different and unique. Then PP did two really bad things IMO.

They decided to change game mechanics to sell more models - the game was originally designed as a rock'em sock'em robot thing with big robots demolishing each other...now so many people call the game infantrymachine - because infantry costs more money to field the same amount of points.

Then they "unified" the rules. Now everything is so similar. A lot of the flavor that attracted me to the game is gone. When everyone is virtually the same thing, why bother playing something else? because they look different? Obviously I'm over-exaggerating a bit, but this is a very real situation. A pawn is a pawn no matter how you dress it up and a queen is still a queen.

I don't think Malifaux should ever graduate from the skirmish format. That means the uniquness of the minions needs to be preserved. But unification of mechanics doesn't have to mean everyone gets the same rules - it may go more along unification of certain typical mechanics, so that the players don't have to track and remember that many exceptions and differences at once.

[Calmdown]

I think the only real barrier to entry right now in monetary terms is the books. Realistically, at some points all old stats cards need to be released as PDFs. In the MMO world, games with large numbers of expansions that require purchases and are not heavily discounted have a very slow uptake rate; no one wants to buy the base game then have to buy 3 expansions on top of it, and the same is true here. Hell, the rules in book 1 and 2 aren't even valid anymore so it's not even a full product.

I disagree that there's too much to learn, though. If the amount to learn was cut down, you'd also cut down on what makes the game fun and interesting - the level of detail. If detail and micromanagement doesn't appeal to someone then this definitely isn't the game for them.

[Fenrir]

. It's a matter of having to own all 3 books (100$ on that alone) to learn your opponents and prepare for competitive playing. And worst of all, it's a matter of assimilating all these special rules in one go. It's been easy on me, as I learned the new models as they came out.

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I know that this has put off a couple of people from playing the game.

[Justin]

We're already at the stage, where introducing a new player to the game is a difficult task - it's a reality. It's a matter of having to buy Rules Manual, starter box and multiple models to start, when it used to be Book 1 and the starter box a bit over 1 year ago. It's a matter of having to own all 3 books (100$ on that alone) to learn your opponents and prepare for competitive playing. And worst of all, it's a matter of assimilating all these special rules in one go. It's been easy on me, as I learned the new models as they came out.

For a new player every expansion makes it harder to jump in.

I just wanna +1 this.

If I had one book I could point new players to and say, "buy that and some models and you're golden" that would be awesome.

[Talos]

Its the same with any Miniature game if you what to be really competitive you need to know all the rules for all the models.

With Malifaux you need 1-2 books. You dont really need book 1 most models have PDF cards you can download. I dont have Book 1 anymore and I dont really miss it.

In Warmachine if you want to be competitive you need the rule book (maybe hordes rulebook as well), your forces book and then all the other forces books including hordes if you want to know all the rules.

With 40k it gets worse as there are even more forces books to buy. The most competivie 40k /WFB players I know buy every codex and army book as they come out, that can easily be around £100 a year.

Malifaux actually has it pretty light compared to the other games I have played.

[Justin]

Its the same with any Miniature game if you what to be really competitive you need to know all the rules for all the models.

With Malifaux you need 1-2 books. You dont really need book 1 most models have PDF cards you can download. I dont have Book 1 anymore and I dont really miss it.

In Warmachine if you want to be competitive you need the rule book (maybe hordes rulebook as well), your forces book and then all the other forces books including hordes if you want to know all the rules.

With 40k it gets worse as there are even more forces books to buy. The most competivie 40k /WFB players I know buy every codex and army book as they come out, that can easily be around £100 a year.

Malifaux actually has it pretty light compared to the other games I have played.

I think part of the problem with Malifaux is that if you want to know all of the rules for the models in your own faction, you need all the books...or all the models in your faction. You can borrow them from a friend but, again, this makes the game slightly harder to get into. The easier to get into, the more new players, the better for the game.

I'm not really complaining. I have all the books already. *shrug* But it's a consideration.

[Q'iq'el]

I agree with Lalochezia 100%. It's one thing to tell people - you need the manual and the army book, it's another to tell them you need the manual and all the outdated books because of the models lists.

There are several ways around this - a giant catalogue-o-book bringing 1, 2 and 3 together, PDFs, faction books...