Zephir Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I think it's comments like this that are the biggest problem with this thread to be honest. That may be fair, but I strongly disagree. In my opinion I feel that outrage, anger, and constant bickering is the true problem, not snarky comments, especially the hilarious ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 That may be fair, but I strongly disagree. In my opinion I feel that outrage, anger, and constant bickering is the true problem, not snarky comments, especially the hilarious ones. We've yet to see the hilarious ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I would say that snarky comments count as bickering personally. Also most of the outrage and anger seems to have come from the 'pro-neverborn' (for want of a better name) side. For the record I love my neverborn, especially Lilith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucket_boy101 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 The fun is in the journey not the destination. I'd rather play 1000 games where I lose and have fun then 1 game where I beat my opponent but neither of us enjoyed it. Sigged. This thread has gone from 6 pages last night, to 23 tonight. I'm not going to bother with 7-23. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 People need to stop and look at the way this is being directed at Wyrd, and at their choices for response. Let's assume for the moment that all the concerns over Neverborn are completely right, and they need to be fixed. So the mob forms, torches, pitchforks, Pandora burned in effigy, Wyrd relents, Neverborn get cuddled, YAY!! We win! Yes. The mob won. What does that mean for the next time someone shows up with their torches and pitchforks, because Marcus won two games in a row because he Alpha'd an opposing master, and how could Wyrd be so completely stupid with the game balance!! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!! What do they do then? And I'm sorry, but this is a mob. Despite Calmdown's assurances that anyone who doesn't see the obvious flaws is an idiot, it's not really as cut-and-dried as all that. Do I want Wyrd to fix problems with the game? Yes. But I DON'T want it to turn into a kneejerk response to every agitator who shows up ranting about how badly entire factions suck. And, to be perfectly honest, I don't want them to do anything Calmdown says. 90% of the models in the game suck to him. Entire factions aren't worth playing. He lives at extremes, and trying to design a game based on that is a recipe for disaster. In short, whatever problems I may see with Neverborn (and at least in our area, there aren't many - they're probably the #3 faction around here) I trust Wyrd to fix it a lot more than him. Maybe that makes me a fanboi. I just call it following experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Let's assume for the moment that all the concerns over Neverborn are completely right, and they need to be fixed. So the mob forms, torches, pitchforks, Pandora burned in effigy, Wyrd relents, Neverborn get cuddled, YAY!! We win! Yes. The mob won. What does that mean for the next time someone shows up with their torches and pitchforks, because Marcus won two games in a row because he Alpha'd an opposing master, and how could Wyrd be so completely stupid with the game balance!! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!! What do they do then? What an absurdly inaccurate portrayal of the discussion so far. Try to approach this topic with less hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 What an absurdly inaccurate portrayal of the discussion so far. Try to approach this topic with less hyperbole. I'm sure you think it's inaccurate. But that's really what it's looking like to anyone who isn't utterly convinced things are so very broken. A minor comment on a new model and how it affects one faction has been derailed into yet another Neverborn-are-broken rant, by the same people, and broke 20 pages in a day. Threads are popping up telling Wyrd how to fix it, anyone who doesn't see how obvious the problem is is just an idiot, and even your own "Let's complain about things other than balance thread" took, as you mentioned, about 3 posts to get there. I'm sure you think it's all calm, careful, reasoned debate... But it certainly isn't coming across that way from the other side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I'm sure you think it's inaccurate. It is. How you're painting the issue is the worst kind of strawman argument. But I agree, the conversation on Neverborn cannot come to dominate every, most, or even some threads. I made the Malifaux Talk thread specifically help alleviate that issue. What would you like to wager that it will also eventually become overrun with posters clamoring for everyone to shut up about issues they seem to think we're making up out of thin air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 What would you like to wager that it will also eventually become overrun with posters clamoring for everyone to shut up about issues they seem to think we're making up out of thin air? I figure the odds are about the same as it being overrun with posters telling anyone who disagrees with them that they're complete idiots. And your last points out the problem here. We're allowed to disagree with you. We're allowed to think you're wrong, and that while Neverborn are challenging to play it's not a massive imbalance, and 3 secret kills for 2 VP isn't out of line with Grudge. The problem is that you don't seem to agree, and there's no stop to the debate. Again, anyone who disagrees is just an idiot, and you're going to keep making threads about it until you get your way. True story, and maybe you can find a moral in it. Way back when I was in Physics I, during our first test I found a problem that didn't make sense. Took it up to the prof, who looked at it, and said "Whoops, this is wrong." Announced it to the class with a tweak, I went back quite pleased with myself. In two other tests that semester I found "problems" with some of the questions. I took them to the prof, who looked them over, said they were fine, and sent me back to my seat. Do you really think at this point that Wyrd isn't aware that some people think there are problems with the Neverborn? That somehow THIS post will be the one changing their mind? That DEMANDING they show up and answer your list of questions (that's the generic your-side-of-things, not the specific you) will change their minds? That's why it looks like a mob. You aren't offering any new information, and there's been very little respect to the other side of the argument. A few of us have gotten testy, but that's hard not to do when conversations go this direction. But nobody's suggested you're making it up - what people have said is that their experiences are different, both personally and with respect to their local meta. Calmdown said Neverborn are so powerful there's no point in playing against them, and Guild are so weak he can't understand why anyone would play them. Again, our last tourney went 1-2 for the Guild, and third to Neverborn. Do you think I made THAT up out of thin air? We've got different experiences. The problem when you offer up something like "Neverborn are too powerful, they dominate" it's hard to convince us when that isn't the case in our area - we have concrete counterexamples that show it's a limited issue. So we look for other explanations and reasons, but none of that's ever good enough and it must be fixed NOW NOW NOW. And we get more threads, from the same small group of people, arguing the same thing. All over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 A post See, when I post, I present arguments for the fact that various Neverborn models are better than their counterparts in other factions. I post statistical data that points to Neverborn trending heavily towards being the best tournament faction. The best you can do to disprove my arguments is tell me that Guild won a tournament in your local area. The reason I tell you that you just don't understand, is because you very obviously dont. If you seriously believe that there is not a balance issue in this game, though, then there's little point arguing with you which is why I've stopped bothering. Good Neverborn players have posted in this thread agreeing that there is - to a greater or lesser extent - an issue. In fact almost everyone agrees that there is, to a greater or lesser extent, an issue. Who are you trying to convince, really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) And your last points out the problem here. We're allowed to disagree with you. We're allowed to think you're wrong Is this a two way street, or just your privilege? And Calmdown's demeanor is not the only one here. Your specific issues with him are with him. There's no "You" to be had, even in a general sense. Take issue with Calmdown's tact with Calmdown. Do you really think at this point that Wyrd isn't aware that some people think there are problems with the Neverborn? That somehow THIS post will be the one changing their mind? That DEMANDING they show up and answer your list of questions (that's the generic your-side-of-things, not the specific you) will change their minds? I don't $$$$$$$$ing know. I don't have a direct line to them, and quite frankly it doesn't matter. Worst case scenario, we discuss something their already aware of, best is that we bring up something they hadn't caught. Do you think I made THAT up out of thin air? Nope. I try not to sidestep arguments by insinuating that you don't know what you're talking about. It's a $$$$$$$$ty way to have a conversation. Edited August 23, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I've not read every post but has anyone actually called someone else an idiot or any other insult? I've had a few debates about malifaux with Calmdown in my time but I don't think anyone ever resorting to insults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 See, when I post, I present arguments for the fact that various Neverborn models are better than their counterparts in other factions. I post statistical data that points to Neverborn trending heavily towards being the best tournament faction. 8 tournaments is not statistical. The best you can do to disprove my arguments is tell me that Guild won a tournament in your local area. And Neverborn don't dominate our casual play night, either, or our leagues. Are there a lot of possible explanations for that? Certainly - which is all people are trying to say about the tournament results you're putting up as well. It's a small sample, with a large number of other influences beyond "BORKEN!" The reason I tell you that you just don't understand, is because you very obviously dont. If you seriously believe that there is not a balance issue in this game, though, then there's little point arguing with you which is why I've stopped bothering. See? Anyone who doesn't agree with you just doesn't understand. Couldn't possibly have any valid points, just clueless, not even worth discussing it. As to what I believe... I'm pretty sure you don't have a clue what I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Nope. I try not to sidestep arguments by insinuating that you don't know what you're talking about. It's a $$$$$$$$ty way to have a conversation. Have I ever said you don't know what you're talking about? This, on the other hand... The reason I tell you that you just don't understand, is because you very obviously dont. If you seriously believe that there is not a balance issue in this game, though, then there's little point arguing with you which is why I've stopped bothering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 alps - rare 3 And thus Dolomyte will be happy but 100's of neverborn players get stuck with 3 or more alps they can't use. Its not that easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Have I ever said you don't know what you're talking about? This, on the other hand... I am not Calmdown, nor am I defending his tact. Merely his right to discuss his issues with the rules. So what's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) 8 tournaments is not statistical. And Neverborn don't dominate our casual play night, either, or our leagues. Are there a lot of possible explanations for that? Certainly - which is all people are trying to say about the tournament results you're putting up as well. It's a small sample, with a large number of other influences beyond "BORKEN!" Why are you determined that the only possible basis I have behind any of this is unsubstantiated shouting? I'm pretty sure that in no post in this thread has that been the case. You seem to be reading it that way (and you seem to be the only one reading it that way). Neverborn doesn't dominate in either of the two local metas that I play in, nor do they dominate in any of the games I play with friends who dont really belong to a metagame. I also, personally, have lost only a very small percentage of my games to Neverborn including beating them happily with every faction other than Outcasts. But this doesnt mean anything. This isn't an "I want my faction to be better than another guy's faction" argument; I have no faction loyalty. It's just a simple (albeit longwinded, now) observation of the fact that the game has issues, coming from an unbiased standpoint. Tell me why exactly you think that this has been a pitchfork wielding mob, other than that the criticism is maybe directed against something that you play? See? Anyone who doesn't agree with you just doesn't understand. Couldn't possibly have any valid points, just clueless, not even worth discussing it. This isnt about anyones points. This is about a simple, almost irrefutable truth - a truth that, as I've said, almost no-one disagrees with. Other than you. Great job at derailing this into a slanging match, though. You'd think henchmen would have a bit more decorum, heh. Incidentally my lack of tact is a product of my upbringing, and also of the fact that I have no interest in being forum buddies with a random hick from some 3-man backwater town. Everything I've talked about in this thread is game-related and every comment I've made about specific posters has been in regards to their Malifaux-related opinions. Your opinions on my prose are not really relevant to whether or not the Malifaux issues are correct or not. Edit: And again we're back to argumentative, which neither furthers the issue nor does anyone any good. You dont like me. No one cares. Edited August 23, 2011 by Calmdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Tell me why exactly you think that this has been a pitchfork wielding mob, other than that the criticism is maybe directed against something that you play? Yep, it's all about trying to defend my turf and protect my favored masters. But I'm sneaky about it - that's why I set up my sig the way I did, and why I post primarily in the Rezzer and Arcanist forums - so you won't realize it! But you did find me out... This is really part of my evil plan to make sure Neverborn become the only faction ANYONE wants to play, so that my bought-but-never-assembled Nightmare LCB will be worth... ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!! Neverborn doesn't dominate in either of the two local metas that I play in, nor do they dominate in any of the games I play with friends who dont really belong to a metagame. I also, personally, have lost only a very small percentage of my games to Neverborn including beating them happily with every faction other than Outcasts. But this doesnt mean anything. This isn't an "I want my faction to be better than another guy's faction" argument; I have no faction loyalty. It's just a simple (albeit longwinded, now) observation of the fact that the game has issues, coming from an unbiased standpoint. ... This isnt about anyones points. This is about a simple, almost irrefutable truth - a truth that, as I've said, almost no-one disagrees with. Other than you. Great job at derailing this into a slanging match, though. You'd think henchmen would have a bit more decorum, heh. Here's the thing: to me, your "this doesn't mean anything" is wrong. It does indeed mean something. If Neverborn aren't dominating, aren't actually disrupting the larger play of the game - and by many accounts, including your own, they're not - then they aren't really broken and don't need to be fixed. Your irrefutable truth is, indeed, refuted. All we have at the moment is anecdotal information - my meta counts just as much as your meta counts just as much as the 8 tournaments in your spreadsheet. What I care about is whether or not they're unbeatable, within the scope and context of the game. It doesn't matter to me if they have more viable top-tier masters (I agree that they do). It matters to me whether on a faction-to-faction level, each faction has the tools to be competitive at the variety of strategies in the game. I feel they do. Do Neverborn have some of the nastiest models in the game? Surely. Do they have more stuff that makes you go "Holy $#!%"? Probably. But so long as the other factions remain competitive, it doesn't bug me much. Incidentally my lack of tact is a product of my upbringing, and also of the fact that I have no interest in being forum buddies with a random hick from some 3-man backwater town. It's not about being forum buddies. It's about showing a modicum of respect to anyone you're dealing with, and maybe even acknowledging that they might know a little something themselves even if they happen to disagree. That really shouldn't be too much to ask. P.S. San Antonio = 7th largest US city, so a bit more than a 3-man backwater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 It's not about being forum buddies. It's about showing a modicum of respect to anyone you're dealing with, and maybe even acknowledging that they might know a little something themselves even if they happen to disagree. That really shouldn't be too much to ask. You're correct. At what point in this discussion did you acknowledge that any of the multiple people who think that there is an issue, may be right? Or does this respect only apply to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Looks like this is starting to get personal guys. Maybe everyone should take a break for a bit and get some air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 At what point in this discussion did you acknowledge that any of the multiple people who think that there is an issue, may be right? Or does this respect only apply to you? I generally consider that implied unless someone explicitly says otherwise, as you have done repeatedly. I won't say I'm always perfect about it, but I try very hard to give examples based on my experience, and explain why those experiences differed, and how my conclusions are different. I've never dismissed anyone's local experiences - only said that there's a larger context. If you have some examples where I've done otherwise, it's quite likely I slipped in what has, honestly, been a very punchy discussion. If so, and you'd like to call them out, I'll certainly apologize for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Looks like this is starting to get personal guys. Maybe everyone should take a break for a bit and get some air? :amen: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Maybe everyone should take a break for a bit and get some air? But its raining outside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 When its time to give the thread a break. I shall jump in. 1. The line about not hearing anything funny yet from jonas. that was hilarious. I laughed out loud. I just had to say that, because it was fantastic. 2. Buh, Your comments suggest that we should include friendly games and non competetive environments when pointing out issues in malifaux. That's a damn good question to ask. Should tournament players and the issues they face be weighted more heavily then casual players? I don't think that is the case. I think we should be considered equally. However, if a casual player or environment does not see a problem with something, because a. the people they play with arent competetive dickbags, or b. the level of skill of those players is not neccessarily the same as those who play competetively. or c. because they know what master they will be facing beforehand and can tailor a list to defeat that master. I don't think they should really use those circumstances as evidence or a refute for why something should not be changed. Neverborn perform incredibly well in tournaments, specifically, in tournament threads, including gencon, complaints were raised about the dreamer and about the lelitu spam. It showed up and it won games. This is not a book three complaint thread (it use to be on page 2), its a book two and one complaint thread. and we have had plenty of tournaments and games with the models to know that there is still an issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 You're correct. At what point in this discussion did you acknowledge that any of the multiple people who think that there is an issue, may be right? Or does this respect only apply to you? isn't that what is was doing from the beginning? and i said that multiple times that i respect your opinion, even though i do not agree with it at some points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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