Nicodem vs. Dreamer: Undertaker's Quest

[Adran]

I just want to remind people it is possible for the dreamer to place his whole crew in your deployment zone activation one.

The risk of a dog heavy crew is that you completely lose the initative of the game. if you only have 1 activation befoe Coppelius and teddy are in combat with your crew, what can you do with a lot of dogs?

The dreamers danger of this is it can over extend him to you attacking back. If you have little or nothing that really threatens him in one activation then he has lost nothing.

[Math Mathonwy]

I had a thought after listening to the the Gamer's Lounge podcast on the Master's. If you are only taking two dogs, I wonder how it would work to take Datsu Ba instead of Sebastian. Takes more activations, but do this:

1) First dog attacks second dog twice for 2

2) second dog attacks first dog twice for 2

3) Datsu ba kills both dogs creating gaki, maybe onryo

Then its 2 corpse counters for Nico and 2 new models as well.

hmmm...

Wow, that's very intriguing indeed. Nice one!

[cerealkiller195]

If you have a great starting hand you could bring the 5 dogs in a circle around Datsue ba and (2) harvest sinners. His minimum damage is 2 anyway coupled with trigger "skinned alive" which triggers "weigh sins" minimum damage 1. This will guarantee dead dogs and quite a few spirits.

don't have my rules manual on me but the dreamers reach wouldn't be able to attack over your own models right? Because you will literally have a bubble of spirits and corpse counters/MZ's at that point.

also if he is taking kidnap wouldn't you counter that with "frame for murder"?

[Hatchethead]

The issue with Reanimating early and basing your game on it is that if you don't get those crows early in the game... badam bam! And it happened to me many times (beside the fact of wasting hours of painting in 1 turn... )

Keeping in mind this is specific to a Dreamer versus Nico match, assuming some form of bomb tactic (which I can pretty much expect, at this point) ...

You read my mind. Last night, after submitting my final reply of the evening, I started thinking, "Okay, so, the entire plan hinges on turn 1 Exhume, Arise and Reanimator ... but what happens if I draw a hand with no crows, turn 1? Do I channel and pray? What about Exhume? Suddenly I'm flipping and hoping for the best. My only hitters at that point are Nico's Decay and either Daw or the Hanged, and Nico will be scrambling turn 2 to make up for the turn 1 disaster. If I fail, do I concede the game?

Obviously not an option. The crew needs to have a backup plan should the turn 1 best case scenario not come to pass (and there are several ways for that to happen). Q, hippie and Adran are right. There needs to be something in the mix that can stand it's ground should turn 1 be a total cluster f-k. That said, I'm not willing to totally forgo turn 1 counter generation, especially not versus the Dreamer.

As much as it pains me to admit, I may need to drop Jack Daw at 25ss. Not a shocking revelation really, he's a pricey model for such a low point game, but with those 9 points I can bring a Belle and a PZ. Then I'm attempting to raise a Crooked or two before Chompy shows up turn 2.

Nico @ 25ss

7ss Mortimer

5ss Punk Zombie

4ss Rotten Belle

4ss Canine Remains x 2

1ss Grave Spirit

This leaves me with a 7 pool, which is great.

If I get lucky and score a lot of crows turn 1, awesome. Two dogs + PZ Slice and Dice for two counters (need a 5+ mask here or I'm burning two AP for separate attacks, not that it matters). Exhume with Mort for another counter (two attempts should I be swingin' for the fences with no crow, or maybe a fling dirt if the dogs manage to survive the PZ), Arise with Nico for 3 MZ. Three potential attempts at Reanimator (or two should I decide to channel one), with any success netting me more cards. I don't intend to move Nico a single inch that first turn, he stays where deployed and does what he was put on this earth to do.

If I come out with a single successful Reanimator and a Crooked Man + replacement card, great. Maybe I can pull it off twice for a second Crooked, PZ, or Belle dependent on the situation. I'm not sure I would even if I could, as I would almost prefer to have my two remaining MZ when LCB drops in to say hello ... though having a second Bolstered PZ for the counter-attack is super tempting and likely worth the stone I would burn in place of the MZ to mitigate the damage.

If it all goes pear-shaped and I don't succeed at a single thing during turn 1 - no crows, no Exhume, three botched Reanimators, even if the Slice and Dice somehow fails - I'm still not in a terrible position. I still have two Canine Remains I can pair up for Hunting Dog + Bolster. I'll have a Belle to Lure and a PZ w/ Bolster to punish. I don't have any MZ, which sucks, but at least I have a 7 pool and a Grave Spirit. In an ideal world I save those 7 soulstones for the counter-attack, but if it comes down to it, I can mitigate a lot of damage between those stones, Nico's Hard to Wound and the Spirit's armor buff. It's not where I want to be, but it's far from hopeless. I'd hate to spend turn 2 casting Decay on Nico instead of the Dreamer's crew, who by then will likely be 6" away at minimum.

The question then becomes: What to do with Nico turn 2 (assuming the incoming bomb)? If I manage to win initiative, do I activate him and Mort first with Zombie Companion, Exhume + Reanimator for yet another minion + Bolster for defense ... OR, do activate Mort alone, Exhume, move, (0) action, allow him to come at me and take his best shot, THEN activate Nico, pop Bolster and rain down Decay and Rigor on everyone and everything? I'm tempted to say the latter. If Dreamer is attacking Nico, Bolster doesn't help anyway. If Dreamer instead chooses to attack one of my minions, I'm not super disappointed because I can bring said minion back easily enough ...

I had a thought after listening to the the Gamer's Lounge podcast on the Master's. If you are only taking two dogs, I wonder how it would work to take Datsu Ba instead of Sebastian. Takes more activations, but do this:

1) First dog attacks second dog twice for 2

2) second dog attacks first dog twice for 2

3) Datsu ba kills both dogs creating gaki, maybe onryo

Then its 2 corpse counters for Nico and 2 new models as well.

hmmm...

Um, wow. That never even began to occur to me. Definitely something to tinker with. Thanks, raven!

Edited August 17, 2011 by Hatchethead

[ravenborne]

Totally agree; one of the problems with Nico is that a no crow hand can really suck, and thus why he isn't as reliable as some masters.

Couple things: I usually channel if there are no crows, because they are probably in the deck. Its a risk, but if you get it off, then you use more corpses and get more cards.

But if you have no Reanimator options at all, and it does happen...all is not lost.

You will have a bunch of MZs, that's good. In my list, you have Sebastion who is a beat stick, and can always turn around and bloody harvest a bunch of alps (or in your list, PZ). However, be aware Slice and Dice is a pain to cast because it takes an 8 mask.

Once the Dreamer crew is on you, I prefer to activate Nico sooner than later; its time for Bolster Undead and Rigormortis. Paralyze away if they are in your melee range, if not then Decay. Note the Decay trigger as well.

Good luck, for in the end, you are fighting an uphill battle. Nico is fun but not Tier 1.

[ravenborne]

If you have a great starting hand you could bring the 5 dogs in a circle around Datsue ba and (2) harvest sinners. His minimum damage is 2 anyway coupled with trigger "skinned alive" which triggers "weigh sins" minimum damage 1. This will guarantee dead dogs and quite a few spirits.

Yeah, I suppose each dog counts as a target, but you would need a lot of crows that would not be going to reanimate. However, in plenty of circumstances I would gladly take that. Going to have to think about this one and see what I can do with it. Nice idea.

[cerealkiller195]

I was also thinking if you have the dogs attack each other to do minimum damage they would be at 1 life anyway. Why not just attack with Nico? why rely on a crow when his cane has a trigger that auto turns anything he kills into a MZ?

[Hatchethead]

Good luck, for in the end, you are fighting an uphill battle. Nico is fun but not Tier 1.

Yeah, thanks. I think it's somewhat clear that Nico was balanced with the original Graverobber mechanic in mind ... being able to dig up corpse counters like Scavengers are able to scrounge up scrap ... but that was clearly OP and I'm glad it was changed.

Turn 2 is so clutch. Opening of turn 2, in fact. That's where my head is, atm.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Flesh Construct ASAP. Two fresh control cards off Reanimator, I summon him 6" out smack in the middle of Chompy's crew, Immune to Inflence to ignore the inevitable Gambles, I can heal him with Decay, he excels up close with the free attack in the closing phase (offsetting summoning sickness), he can Fling models out of position or into Shafted counters and if he dies, I get my two counters back.

I'm not crazy about sac'ing an MZ (if I even have one left), but dependent on the corpse counter situation at the top of 2 following Mort's Exhume and the real possibilty a freshly dead minion courtesy of Chompy, it's not out of the question.

Hmm ...

[Hatchethead]

also if he is taking kidnap wouldn't you counter that with "frame for murder"?

Maybe, but the main issue is that Kidnap occurs as soon as the three noted minions are removed from play. If you bring three dogs and ice them turn 1 with Sebastian, that's 2VP for the Neverborn. Frame for Murder is only worth 1VP and requires that the enemy master kill the noted model. With the dogs and other expendables, at least with Nico, they're often dead long before the opposing master shows up and starts swinging.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Hatchethead

[poulpox]

Assuming he doesn't want to deal with Crooked Men and work around the Shafter Marks first. If he's into taking risks the entire defense strategy won't be all that effective, even if it can grant a lucky win.

.

That's only if you fly the Dreamer into position; I use Frightening Dreams to unburry LCB and 3rd Daydream in striking range, so since both aren't doing any move action or push they wouldn't be bothered by the shaft markers. If I have just a low mask to trigger All my Friends I almost certainly strike with LCB in turn 1, unless the opponent stays parked in the back of his deployment zone (which seems unlikely since the res crew is slow and has to take as much advance as poss to reach objectives). So I'd still say beware of turn 1 against LCB.

[Hatchethead]

With my approach to Nico, I think the key is moving minions just enough to remain outside of LCB's max threat range for turn 1. If that means not moving at all, for the purposes of my strategy versus the Dreamer, that's exactly what I intend to do ... but only for the one turn. Maybe that will be enough to cost me the game, I dunno. I suppose that's dependent on the strategy.

It really is tough match-up. Just knowing what the Dreamer is capable of informs my entire strategy and immediately puts me on the defensive. Add to that the fact that a Neverborn player has the option ... maybe I bring the Dreamer, maybe not ... maybe I'll bring Pandy or Z or Lilith instead ... it's a really hard nut to crack.

Thankfully, in this case, I know for a fact it'll be Deamer so I'm free to net deck the sucker.

[Hatchethead]

We're trying to discuss it in a bit of a vacuum' date=' because we don't know what type of the crew Nic is going to face and in what conditions.[/quote']

If you wanna hit this with the super-specific stick, here are the models my opponent has in his burgeoning Neverborn collection:

Dreamer/LCB

2 Stitched

4 Daydreams

Teddy

Coppelius

3 Alps

I'm safe from lures at this point, but I suspect that won't last long. I believe he currently has a Lilith box on order, as well. Plus a Cherub. Nightmare Teddy is also en route.

[aka_hazard]

One thing to bear in mind when using Immune to Influence models (Flesh Construct) is to watch out for the Insidious Madness - if you get wounded by Neverborn Whispers, which can target your Df, then you lose immunities or bonuses involving Wp for that turn. Oh, and NW has a 10" range.

As a Dreamer player I'd try for an IM hit then follow up with Stitched.

[ravenborne]

HatchetHead, one word of warning about MZ... you can really get into trouble if you have a bunch of MZ around alps at the end of the turn, they can all get "slow" killed and end up turning into more alps. So they do not work so much as shields. Don't forget though, you can sack them and re-place them.

[hippieshopper]

So, he is an alp bomber.

Alps are not as cool as they seem if you're surrounded by Frankies.

Slow+Slow does not equal Paralyze, so you're good.

I would do what Qi'iq'el said and scatter them out with Fog covering them and Bolster up. That way when he does drop it on you, you can take control of the situation immediately.

Also as it was said, LCB takes a lot of cards to run that murdertrain, so if a model dies on the last AP of LCB/Dreamer, pop out Bete Noire and smack him with Slit Jugular. He has to chuck 2 Cards...if he dies, you get a card and a very nice story to tell.

If you have a problem with alps, save cards for Slice and Dice with the PZ. It's not a "Walk/Strike" so you don't suffer for it. If you can, and you want, use Undress (from the Belles) and lower their DF by 2.

[ravenborne]

So how is that ruled I wonder, the book is a little vague. If you receive slow, but are already slow, of course you do not get double slowed...but, do you count as having received it and then it immediately cancels? If so you would still take wounds.

I have heard this argued both ways.

[Hatchethead]

Feed on Dreams specifically states that you take the wound even if you're already Slow.

Does this fall under the category of "cannot stack effects from multiple sources with the same name"? If I lose a Smother Wp duel within 3" of 3 Alps, do I lose 3 Wds or am I only affected by a single instance of Feed on Dreams?

Edited August 18, 2011 by Hatchethead

[poulpox]

Your Slow status remains as it is but yes you would lose the 3 Wds each time you receive slow even if you are already slow regardless of the source. If you have a flesh construct closeby though it shouldn't be too much an issue since he doesn't test for Wp to strike. Also remember focused strikes don't trigger the Alp ability, and will surely get rid of an alp at a time

Edited August 18, 2011 by poulpox

[Adran]

I don't see why people are channeling Reanimator. Sure, it gets you 2 cards on the flip, but so does casting it twice. There is no down side to failing to cast it and you save an AP if the first card is the crow.

And 3 alps does not a bomb make. Anyone owning coppelius should buy a pack of them. Even if you're using him in a guild crew. But the advice for dealing with them is good.

[Q'iq'el]

I don't see why people are channeling Reanimator. Sure, it gets you 2 cards on the flip, but so does casting it twice. There is no down side to failing to cast it and you save an AP if the first card is the crow.

Perfectly agreed. And frankly speaking, there's not much point in casting Reanimator, if you are not ready to cheat it. Only 6 cards in the deck, including the Red Joker, cast it.

[Adran]

Another 5 will put you in range to Soulstone it, so you're probably looking at 11 out of 40 ish cards. I don't know if I'd risk those odds, but with 3 casts its not impossible to get it.

[Q'iq'el]

Another 5 will put you in range to Soulstone it, so you're probably looking at 11 out of 40 ish cards. I don't know if I'd risk those odds, but with 3 casts its not impossible to get it.

And risk burning 3 Soulstones for nothing?

Sure, there are cases where you just *must* reanimate something to win. But the Soulstones are there to defend Nicodem and to Soulstone up offensive Decay. Rigor Mortis in desperate cases.

[ravenborne]

Good point. I think I have just tried to get myself into the habit of remembering to channel, but I don't think there is any reason for Reanimator.

I do soulstone it though sometimes, if I am close. I often take 8 stones for that reason; I summon aggressively, and I consider playing Nicodem kind of a risk in the first place.

If it were a tournament, I probably would not be playing him. But if I were, I base it on how high my crow was.

Edited August 18, 2011 by ravenborne

[Q'iq'el]

I do soulstone it though sometimes, if I am close.

A good thing to realize, when it comes to Soulstones and Cheating in general, is that they not only represent a scarce and precious resource, but also that they impact the spells differently depending on whether the effects scale or remains binary.

A typical scaling effect is represented by a damage flip. The higher you cheat, the higher you push the total with your Soulstone, the higher both the chance to succeed and the damage caused.

Reanimate or Rigor Mortis are good examples of binary effect spells - you either succeed or fail. Sure, it makes sense to cheat to succeed, but you don't have to cheat very high either - especially in the former case. There may be a tactical reason to cheat/soulstone Rigor Mortis to force it through the opponent's defenses, but it isn't improving the effect in any way.

That's the reason why it is a bit of a waste to use Soulstone on Reanimate. Sure, it may be needed sometimes, but it isn't a very efficient way of using the resource.

[Math Mathonwy]

Perfectly agreed. And frankly speaking' date=' there's not much point in casting Reanimator, if you are not ready to cheat it. Only 6 cards in the deck, including the Red Joker, cast it.[/quote']

If you don't have suitable cards in hand and this is the first activation of the turn, there's approx 1/4 chance of getting it through with two casts. If the turn is a bit further along, and you haven't yet encountered those cards, then the chance starts to be somewhat OK. With a soul stone, the chance goes up a bit.

Not to say that trying to cast it just through luck is a good idea in the vast majority of cases, but sometimes it might be worth a shot if a Rogue Necromancy is all you need to win and you have the corpse counters around. Very rarely, though.