Nicodem vs. Dreamer: Undertaker's Quest

[Hatchethead]

Alright dead heads, I need your help!

Despite owning all four Resurrectionist masters, I could count the number of times I've run Nicodem on one hand. I intend to change that.

Meanwhile ...

A new player at my LGS recently started with the Dreamer, the first individual in our group to field LCB. We've been doing our best to muddle through, deciphering his crew and their mind numbing shenanigans as best we can (thank you to the Marshals I've been harassing recently, and PullMyFinger).

In a showing of solidarity, I've decided to take up the one Rezzer master I've been ignoring, old man Nicodem. I've committed to running Nico and only Nico for the forseeable future. With this in mind ...

NICODEM vs. DREAMER! ... FIGHT!

So I'm fishing for two things: General, newbie-grade Nicodem advice and specific tips for Nico versus Dreamer. NOTE: I've already read the Nico portion of PullMyFinger.

I have a suitcase full of models to summon, every minion currently available to the Resurrectionists, so the sky's the limit in that respect. We're currently running 25ss scraps, but that will increase as we settle in and the speed of play picks up, likely capping out around 35ss.

I intend to play this match-up many, many times in the coming weeks, plus encounters versus the likes of Perdita, Ramos, Lilith, Sonnia, Tina and the Viks. I'm fairly comfortable versus those crews, but, to be frank, Dreamer scares the HELL out of me.

Tips and tricks appreciated, thanks in advance!

Edited August 14, 2011 by Hatchethead

[poulpox]

First you have to be aware that he has a potential to strike from turn 1 anything within 21" or so, so I would be cautious where I place Nico until I get some MZ on the board (No point surrounding Nico with models as with Rg 3 and Ht 4 LCB can strike above models and far). I would take a lot of cheap models (as usual) and keep Nico way back (let him deploy first if you can), or maybe some spirits as his damage output struggles a bit against spirits. If Dreamer plays at leaping forward, he will only be giving you counters quickly if you field low cost minions. Also his Cb isn't that great, so once you Bolster Undead it becomes more tricky (ie not worth burning a ss for killing a dog...). One model I found a little annoying when playing my Dreamer was Jack Dow: Dreamer crew has to cast a lot of spells until the crews are close to each other; have Jack close to daydreams might prevent fast moves (but Dreamer himself is immune to Jack's aura though).

Take out the daydreams asap, that will cripple him hard, so maybe using Crooked spells or some spirits (hanged and Jack?) to move upfield quickly.

Good luck!

[aka_hazard]

Definitely make the DayDreams your top priority.

They help a lot with the Dreamers movement and bury/unbury tricks.

Even though the Dreamer can summon more DayDreams they cost 2SS everytime one is summoned so the Dreamer would soon run out of SS.

[Hatchethead]

Thanks guys. Solid advice. I'll go into our first few games gunning for sweet, sweet Daydream scalps.

Preface: Wow. This turned into a super long post. Sorry about that. tl;dr, I wouldn't blame you! I just starting thinking and typing and typing and thinking and on and on and on ... If you do decide to read it all, thanks so much in advance. Your patience is much appreciated.

The Dreamer scares me in general, but he really throws me for a loop when I sit and consider how best to approach a Nico v. Dreamer encounter.

During setup, I get hung up on schemes and crew composition. My first instinct is to take the standard "many small things" + a heavy hitter that cannot otherwise be summoned (Hanged, Bête, KJ, Dead Rider, etc.), but then I start worrying about Kidnap. I'm basically handing him 2 VP with a selection of dogs, Necropunks and/or Desperate Mercs that almost certainly won't be in play come turn 3 (let alone turn 6). I'm honestly not a fan of Doug or Nico versus Neverborn for this reason alone.

So what? I go fighty? Build a crew with the models I would usually opt to summon down the road? Okay, but I'm already up against a crew that doesn't drop corpse counters so I'm really hamstringing myself in that regard. Mortimer can only do so much with Exhume. The summon machine will be super slow to spin up, and Chompy is coming ... I need more minions to put in his way and zombies to protect the old man.

I suppose I can try to offset Kidnap with the Rezzer-specific scheme Death After Death. Seems I can count Mindless Zombies in my final crew total (no mention of insignificant), so at least it would be a wash in that case. Assuming Mort does okay with low crows for Exhume (which I also need to cheat + soulstone for Reanimator in the absense of a high crow), this should be doable more often than not. I'm forced to announce versus his secret auto-success scheme. Not ideal, but it'll do.

Then there's turn 1 and beyond ...

The Dreamer's movement tricks allow him to announce companion groups within companion groups, placing models within 6" and beyond with companioned shenanigans, without needing line of sight, meaning The Fog does little to hamper his mobility. Chompy and friends can easily be placed within it, within 3" of their desired targets to ensure LoS. Nico himself is slow as funk, so there's really no getting away. I could clump up and use minions beyond Mindless Zombies to hinder placement options, but then I'm just asking to be Alp bombed. At least I can drop Decay on my own head should that happen, thus healing and countering the Alpish nonsense. Thankfully also, Nico and many of his go-to minions have good Wp to resist Smother.

Crooked Men seem like something of an answer. Drop enough Shafted counters and maybe I can redirect his movement, knowing he's jumping at 6" intervals approximately (7" with Dreamer's flight). So I'll need 9+ unsuited for that. Not terrible, though not what I'd call reliable if hoping to pull off en masse. Cave In is a nice option as well, as Chompy and his boys usually end up in tight groupings.

Hanged seem like an auto-include in this match-up. The chance to hit LCB with Whispers from Beyond is just too tempting and makes for a good deterrent. Condemned Whisper gets around Teddy's Immune to Influence. Hangman's Knot seems ideal for pulling and punishing Daydreams; for a 6+ mask I can swing that, though now I'm competing with The Fog. Much of his remaining utility is hampered by a prevalence of non-living Nightmares, but the stuff mentioned above almost seems worth the price of admission regardless.

Vultures. I want to say that a Grave Spirit (+ Hanged!) would be better here, but I'm liking the additional Decays w/ high mobility a Vulture is giving me. Plus Eyes and Ears. Being able fly 10" to punish a down field or straggling Daydream seems like something I should be opting for. He would represent my only real utility outside of Nico's 6"-10" Reanimator/Bolster/Fog/Arise bubble. I'd consider two of them if I had a second mini. Still on the fence about this, overall.

Bolstered Canine Remains and Necropunks seem like fun. Can use Mort to (0) Zombie Companion a dog then chain Man's Best Friend on down the line to take advantage of Hunting Dogs and Bloodhound. Necropunks are nice and fast, Arachnid is cool, though Leap would be competing with The Fog and Hangman's Knot for masks. Get a couple in close for the Overpower. No need to overextend them, I suppose. Keep two of them close together, close to home and I can slap some Slow on those jackass Alps when they come callin' ... I'd prefer to use the Vulture for additional offense and not down field counter collection, so keeping my 2ss "expendables" within 10" sounds like an reasonable idea. Stay within Bolster, stay within The Fog, stay within Arise. A 10" pie plate is a massive chunk of table, I can still maintain a decent spread therein. Sending them down field might slow up the Dreamer a little if he decides to deal with them, but the annoyances outweigh the benefits.

Desperate Mercs are something, but they're not undead so they're not really something I'm inclined to consider (no Bolster). Free healing flip when he/she dies, Frantic, For My Family. It's all good, but he's just so alive.

Poulpox, you suggest Jack Daw. Interesting. I own him, though only just (he's still in his clam shell). I'll have to take a good hard look at him. I worry that he'll burn through my control hand to avoid death, leaving me floundering and hurting when I need to successfully cast (and ensure a failed resist). Admittedly, I don't know the first thing about his play style beyond his death mechanic and a few of his auras, so I'll need to do a little research ...

Mortimer seems like an auto-include in this specific match-up. I need Exhume. Fresh Meat is sweet, potential synergy with Canine Remains. No brainer?

Nico himself ... I think I'm going into this encounter with as close to max soulstone pool as I can manage. In fact, that's likely what I'll be doing with Nico regardless of the opponent. I need those stones to boost a cheated low crow for Reanimator. I want that spell going off every turn, priority one. Bolster/Arise as necessary.

The Fog ...? I know I've mentioned it several times, but, is The Fog situational in this match, moreso than usual? Dreamer has so much freedom to place his models exactly where he wants them, if that Stitched needs to be within 3" to Gamble, he probably will be. I don't see it as being an auto-cast each turn. Or maybe it is. I suppose forcing that Stitched to within 3" isn't a bad thing, brings him close to Nico's bodyguard, forces the Stitched to move to gain LoS. But I'm also blocking my own LoS for purposes of Hangman's Knot, Rigor Mortis, Condemned Whispers, Whisper from Beyond, etc. I haven't had enough experience with it to know for certain.

Rigor Mortis. This needs to happen as often as possible, obviously. High card super priority alongside Reanimator. Of course Decay spam for blast heals and dmg when things get tight (which they will). No free Mindless thanks to Nightmares, but oh well. I guess I'm Putrefying everything, which isn't bad.

So ... that's where I'm at! More thoughts as they occur to me. If you made it this far, thanks again for reading! Please, please, please tell me where I'm making false assumptions or errors of any kind.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Hatchethead

[poulpox]

Poulpox, you suggest Jack Daw. Interesting. I own him, though only just (he's still in his clam shell). I'll have to take a good hard look at him. I worry that he'll burn through my control hand to avoid death, leaving me floundering and hurting when I need to successfully cast (and ensure a failed resist). Admittedly, I don't know the first thing about his play style beyond his death mechanic and a few of his auras, so I'll need to do a little research ...

Dreamer actually doesn't have that many things which can Wd Jack (ie no magic weapon, and no Dg spells that I can think of), so the only way for him to go at Jack is focused strikes, and he can't really do too many of those (that would be a waste, so I think you'll be pretty safe with your control hand. Plus Jack grants you one extra card, an extra chance to get those crows! On top of it if Jack kills a Daydream that's one extra Vp for you, bonus!

If you have Mortimer and let's say 3 weak minions, that gives you an average of 6 corpse counters in the game, which unless you only summon big beasties, covers your summoning pool in 6 turns (meaning here that you hardly will manage to cast Reanimator more than 6 times in a whole game). KJ is a good choice when facing non-counterdropping crews like Dreamer's because if he falls, that's 3 counters for you to use towards what should be the end of the game; also KJ with his HTW 2 is pretty good vs LCB whose bottom Dg is not that great.

I would try a list like this for 35ss:

Nico cache 6/5ss

11ss KJ

7ss Mortimer

1ss Grave Spirit

6ss 3x Dogs or 2x Necropunks

8/9ss Hanged or Jack

This lists gives you 6/7 corpse counters (-1 for the model which will get sacced to bring KJ) + those exhumed by Mortimer which should be enough (but don't take Nico's scheme though or the one which you have to have more models than at the beginning)

Grave spirit is great to protect Nico at the beginning then once you have MZ on the board to link with Hanged so he becomes unkillable (7 Wds spirit with armour +2, yum!)

Think that if he does moves far up the board he will be likely to expose his Daydream to do it, so the next turn you might be able to pop them if you send your spirit far up.

Also LCB likes his triggers, without which his attacks are just above normal, so if you use Jack and place him right with his aura, he'll prevent LCB from cheating and soulstoning, this means that against undead bolsted up, he won't do much; he's only a beast in cc with soulstones and onslaught (when I play Dreamer I usually max up my cache to power up LCB strikes).

Dreamer isn't broken (I don't say this just because I love him!) he's just a very different play-style hard to get used to; once you got your head around his movement potential all your fears will vanish!

EDIT: I agree Ears and Eyes might be very useful to cast Rigor on Daydreams, however if I'd play Dreamer and had a good hand I would go straight at Nico if he's within 20" in turn 1, which with onslaught and poison could be lethal within the first 2 turns, hence the extra armour of grave spirit... hmmm... tough choice!

Edited August 14, 2011 by poulpox

[Haystacks]

Im wondering what is going to be said. I've not played many games with nico, so this will help

[Hatchethead]

Thanks for the in-depth response, poulpox. Do you play both Dreamer and Nico? If so, you're just the guy I need to be talkin' to!

I don't think the Dreamer is broken, per say. He certainly puts his opponent on the back foot. It's hard to launch an offensive against him as he's always dictating the location and timing of the battle, able to come and go at will. He won't take me by surprise, at least. I know what to expect.

Jack Daw is a very strong contender. Crippling the Dreamer's control hand with a combination of Suppressed Memories or Knot + triggers and Nico's Putrefy trigger has a lot of potential. Severed Ties is pure gold, as is his additional control card. Plus a potential 1 VP if I don't play him like an idiot? Sounds amazing.

35ss leaves plenty of wiggle room, but what do you figure for 25ss? Your list above minus KJ? Maybe drop one of the expendables for a few additional stones? I would consider swapping out the Grave Spirit for a Vulture, possibly dependent on whether I include a Hanged or Jack himself.

You mention not taking Nico's scheme, which I totally agree with. I mean ... it's not bad depending on the opponent's strategy and the master he's running ... maybe versus Gremlins or Hamelin or someone who just hemmorages corpse counters and isn't otherwise attempting reconnoiter. Certainly not versus the Dreamer. I need every precious counter to stand up and pull it's weight. Same can be said of Army of Dead. It has a place, but that place ain't in this encounter, regardless of strategy.

But Death After Death is no good? Hmm. I suppose if half of your counters are zero gain, a straight swap model for model, breaking even, your only pulling ahead with Mort's Exhume and that's only if you're not losing models. So yeah, I can appreciate that.

What schemes would you recommend versus Dreamer? Is it largely based on the strategy, or is there something that works well more often that not, specifically to balance out the auto-Kidnap I'll be dealing with 100% of the time.

Actually, dropping one of the dogs or punks not only nets me two additional stones at 25ss, it also puts him in a position where he's forced to select a third model for Kidnap that could potentially be a tough kill. Of course, I'd prefer to have that third guaranteed corpse counter, but forcing him off a guaranteed 2 VP isn't a terrible thing. It also swings me back in favor of the Grave Spirit. Even with 10/10, if I intend to use the Vulture to cast Rg 10 spells, Chompy would have no trouble picking him off, especially if doing so would net him 2 VP.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Hatchethead

[poulpox]

Thanks for the in-depth response, poulpox. Do you play both Dreamer and Nico? .

Yes indeed!

I've played Dreamer for a while and he is my fav master, although my opponents have given me the "it's not fair" eye many a time. Funnily enough those who got on with it were the toughest opponents I then had, it tells it all

I'm new-ish to Nico, so take my suggestions for just what they are

I don't think the Dreamer is broken, per say. He certainly puts his opponent on the back foot. It's hard to launch an offensive against him as he's always dictating the location and timing of the battle, able to come and go at will. He won't take me by surprise, at least. I know what to expect..

There's usually 2 type of positioning with Dreamer: one very close together which allows you to sling LCB far up field 21" (+3" for LCB melee range), and one which allows for 1-2 Daydreams to float around alone which only permits a LCB sling of about 13" (I'm talking of slings where LCB can do a full AP activation,; if he has only 1AP usually it isn't really worth it unless against a very weak model).

35ss leaves plenty of wiggle room, but what do you figure for 25ss? Your list above minus KJ?

Yes that what I'd do

But Death After Death is no good? Hmm. I suppose if half of your counters are zero gain, a straight swap model for model, breaking even, your only pulling ahead with Mort's Exhume and that's only if you're not losing models. So yeah, I can appreciate that.

Yes, I feel you might run a bit tight on counters: for example if you start raising Flesh constructs, you get even less models for your counters. If you start using the MZ to save Nico then they're sacced and won't drop counters, to bare in mind. However I didn't think of the MZ counting towards the final total for the scheme, so maybe it is viable?

What schemes would you recommend versus Dreamer? Is it largely based on the strategy, or is there something that works well more often that not, specifically to balance out the auto-Kidnap I'll be dealing with 100% of the time.

I feel with Nico (well isn't it for most masters in the end?) it's all in the strategy flip: it will determinate your crew usually and mos def your schemes; the right combo makes for victory. Bodyguard (particularly if you have Grave spirit) is a pretty strong scheme regardless.

Actually, dropping one of the dogs or punks not only nets me two additional stones at 25ss, it also puts him in a position where he's forced to select a third model for Kidnap that could potentially be a tough kill. .

I like this idea, as Neverborn crews usually go for Kidnap so often. A crew with little/no cheap models is very viable and strong, just simply not concentrating on sum moning many models, but sometimes you don't really need it too much (I'm thinking of escape and survive strategy, a typical game where you can't afford to take weak models in the start as each death counts against you)

if I intend to use the Vulture to cast Rg 10 spells, Chompy would have no trouble picking him off, especially if doing so would net him 2 VP.

Definitely, plus your corpse counter for the vulture will be far up field, hard to use

[hippieshopper]

Don't just take a lot of dogs unless your strategy is something like A Line in the Sand or something that says "Place X on other side of table"

Slaughter is something us zombie doers do best.

When you say dreamer I think of several types to build him.

Which does your opponent use?

Some people say "Oh, alp bomb is da best"

Do they try to mix and match?

Just run with the Oogie boogies?

Also Death after Death is only good if you go against people who LOOOVE using small cheap models without some way to eat Corpse Counters.

I would take Bodyguard as one, as Nicodem is impossible to kill if you play him right.

I usually only take Mortimer if I am going against all machines or...the Dreamer.

Punk Zombies!!!

You need punk zombies...and Belles...this is bread and resser butter.

Punk Zombies are lethal, easy to kill, but countlessly...I have killed something because my opponent thought it was a good idea to charge my PZ

Belles can lure pretty much anything not Immune to Influence, they get to hit anything if you can pull and enemy into their 2" melee range, oh...and they're 4SS apiece. Lure something close to the belle, have a PZ close and flurry it to death.

Nico can buff anything within 10" of him with a lovely +2Cb and +2Df, giving your PZs Paired 9 Cb.

Bete Noire is nice because she can pop up and paralyze, and her paralyze goes off on HIT, not on damage. With buffed, paired 8cb, paralyze will be easy.

Jackie Jack is nice, but you have to hold on to the Black Joker...which keeps your hand size equal to theirs.

Killjoy is really nice but he costs a lot and is a huge target for Chompy, however the Oogie Boogies will tear him up with their Gamble.

I would try to bring out some Frankies...or Flesh Constructs. They're big, have wonderful Cb, and Wds...they do a lot of damage, are faster than you might think and the Oogie Boogies can't touch them with Gamble your life.

Tried to break up the TL;DR a bit.

I know people will usually disagree but I am used to it.

Apparently, we're a bunch of dirty metagamers up here.

[Hatchethead]

Great input! Thanks to you both.

One thing I do want to address immediately is this:

I feel with Nico (well isn't it for most masters in the end?) it's all in the strategy flip: it will determinate your crew usually and mos def your schemes; the right combo makes for victory.

I agree! In fact, this thread is a major departure for me. My modus operandi involves showing up with a suitcase full of minis and hiring a crew once I have all of the available information. I never net deck and I rarely show up with a specific list or master firmly in mind.

Several factors have contributed to the creation of this thread:

1. I've sworn to play Nicodem in every game for at least a month. This means he'll be my pick regardless of the setup conditions and my opponents all know it.

2. The guy running Dreamer? It's his only crew. Guaranteed match-up.

3. I've run two semi-demo games against his Dreamer crew, specifically geared toward learning how they function and both were an education, leaving us with a fairly solid understanding. I've also pestered numerous Marshals for clarifications, read the wiki and spent some time trolling Dreamer-related threads.

4a. Knowing what I know, I then sat down with Nico's stat card, stared at it and had a mild stroke.

4b. Moreso than any other Master (I think), especially versus Nicodem, Dreamer can dictate the fight regardless of strategy. Sure, Line in the Sand or whatever, but if he wants to get up in my grill on turn 2 and attempt to cripple my crew by turn 3, he can. He's then free to fulfill his strategies and remaining schemes at his leisure.

... and that's at the heart of the matter. The new Dreamer player is establishing a firm grip on the tomfoolery inherent; he's very capable with tons of tabletop experience, has already found PullMyFinger, Ratty's page and I think he's even on the forum. In fact ... he might be reading this right now.

If so: :aetsch:

In two games he has dropped a blob of nightmares on my crew in turn 2 and I expect him to continue doing so until I can show him it's not always the ideal course of action. What better way to do so than with a master I'm barely familiar with!

The last time I saw him, he was walking away with a clam shell of Alps, grinning ear to ear. I feel justified approaching this match-up with something of a pre-set list, expecting to have a Ht 4 demon and his little friends all up in my business ASAP, regardless of the strategy. As his understanding of his crew and the game deepens, I have a feeling this will change, but for now I need to go in and make it clear that old man Nicodem can play the game on Chompy's terms.

[pgbsamurai]

I primarily play the Dreamer, but the opponent I play against the most does like Nico, so I am familiar with his style and some of his tricks.

Here are a few weaknesses you can try to exploit against the Dreamer.

A few things to remember about the dreamer is while he himself is quite mobile his crew relies on him to be dropped off. They also function most effectively by dropping as a group and tying up your crew. Try not to give the Dreamer an easy group to drop his crew on. This also helps to reduce the effectiveness of an Alp bomb. Granted some strats this won't work with, ie claim jump, but it is something to keep in mind.

Belles are also effective as you can Lure and isolate a nightmare and take it out. Divide and conquer is a good thing when facing Dreamer.

Paralyze is another ability to keep in mind. If you can paralyze the dreamer he can't drop any models he has buried. A well place paralyze can cripple a Dreamer crew. And if nothing else, you will force your opponent to burn cards and stones to keep it from happening.

And as always, getting rid of Day Dreams always hurts the Dreamer. Granted he can summon more, but it will cost SS.

Edited August 15, 2011 by pgbsamurai

[hippieshopper]

Yes, you guys are on the money.

The Dreamer is active and mobile, whereas Nico is slow and reactive.

He's a "wait and see" master

Out of all of his spells, Rigor Mortis is actually your best weapon, for anyone

PGB is right, with mobile crews your best guess is to isolate a model, kill it off, and repeat, by the 4-5th turn he won't have anything but the Dreamer left....usually

You just have to prepare for where he will drop the bomb on you and have counter attacks ready.

You may also want to try using some Crooked Men too.

Most people don't send their models into Shafted counters so they end up being a wall, you can use this and make a decent meat grinder.

[Hatchethead]

Cheers guys. Great advice, plenty of food for thought. I'm lovin' the input from Dreamer players. Nothing better than intel from behind enemy lines!

Trying to stay spread out within the 10" Bolster zone with a careful eye for placement seems to be the key, setting up potential counter-attacks and overlapping auras. No matter where Chompy plops himself down, he'll be leaving someone in his crew ripe for an ass kicking.

Flesh Constructs are an interesting proposition. He had a helluva time with the one I brought in during our McM vs. Dreamer semi-demo. Suddenly there's this big meat stick he can't Gamble to death (Immune to Influence). Might be worth the two counters.

Bete is a consideration. I hesitate only because Dreamer is the main melee threat, and more often than not he's in and out quick, leaving nothing but a bloody smear. Bete can pop, but she's left without a target in most cases. Might give Teddy pause, though, and an extra source of Paralyze is tempting.

Rigor Mortis is so clutch, given the choice I'd probably choose to Paralyze a key model and forgo a casting of Reanimator. Dependenet on the circumstances, of course.

Punk Zombies are just too good. In both games, Teddy found his butt handed to him by a Punk Zombie juiced up on either Bolster or a Nurse's Stimulant. Sliced the grin off his stupid face.

Belles? Yes please. Probably my favorite utility model in the faction, not sure why I didn't consider them 'til now. Between the Belles with Lure and the Hanged with Knot and Crooked Men dropping Shafted counters ...

Not sure who I'd summon first.

[hippieshopper]

I'd start offing dogs and exhuming to get some frankies

I'd only reanimate PZs and Belles if you didn't have/start with them

I'd have a max oh 4 PZs and up to 3 Belles

If you have more than that and you can get something out of him, start whipping up Frankies.

That's always how I've dealt with the 'Born, a wall of frankies is an amazing feat though.

The major threats are;

Oogie Boogies Gambling things that aren't immune to influence

LCB give your models extraneous arseholes.

Teddy.

Although he won't be a problem if your models are affected by Bolster Undead.

Also with Bete, I don't know if you get the paralyze because of some rules douchebaggery concerning what is and isn't living.

If nothing else take the +2 Damage Flips...or slow on hit.

[Q'iq'el]

Yup, Nightmares aren't living. And basically everything in the Dreamer crew is a Nightmare, including Teddies (who become Nightmares when they join him). I think the Dreamer is the only non-nightmare model in a typical build.

But that restriction on Paralyze affects only Bête Noire, due to her special wording. Nicodem is just as good at Paralyzing Nightmares as everything else and so are the Crooked Men.

Personally I like Crooked Men when it comes to defending Nicodem. 2 can deny quite an area, especially if you use the terrain cleverly as well. They have less killing potential than the Punks, but they are just as survivable, fight well within the Nicodem's bubble and they can dish out extra Paralyzed with their Bury trigger.

Then, if you are heavily into mining up the ground, they are the only models who can walk on the top of all these markers safely, which can be quite an advantage.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[ravenborne]

Playing is Nicodem is like playing an RTS. You have to summon what you need in prep for the oncoming onskaught. I like 5-6 dogs that seabass can kill right away and Nico can turn into much better stuff with three spells and some soulstones if needed. All close enough that he is out of melee range, but able to pummel rigo/paralyze and/or decay into combat.

[Hatchethead]

Hmm. No Paralyze with Bete, huh? Too bad. If I were to bring her, it would be as a pure anti-Teddy measure or maybe to punish a Lilitu Lure. I suppose if he starts bringing multiple Teddies ... he did order a Nightmare edition, after all. I actually prefer her to KJ, to be honest. As someone mentioned earlier, I have visions of him getting Gambled to death by Stitched in record time, if not sent packing by a follow-up Dreamer one-two punch.

Crooked Men look really strong in this match-up, on paper at least. I don't see them being very good at stopping Dreamer/LCB from closing the distance ... so far Jack Daw seems to be the only trip wire I can toss down field for that purpose alone ... but there is extreme value in denying chunks of real estate within Nico's bubble; and let's face it, that's where most of the encounter is going to take place versus the Dreamer unless my opponent decides to go for a pure strategy/scheme grab and ignore Nico's 10" circle of death. Plus, more Paralyze? Yes, please.

Lots of potential for me to trip over myself packing Jack Daw's aura and Shafted Counters and whatever else so close to the bulk of my force, but that seems to be THE skill required to play the Undertaker effectively: placement, placement, placement. Placement of auras, placement of counters, placement of models within the fog to mitigate or take advantage of LoS restrictions, where they are in relation to each other and the enemy, maximizing counter-attack potential, the list goes on and on.

With regard to crew composition, I'm still undecided on the matter of expendables. Do I:

A) Hire two expendable models (dogs or Necropunks) in the hopes of foiling Kidnap?

OR

Do I load up, like 3-5, maximizing corpse counter potential? I'd be handing him the 2VP for Kidnap, but I'd go in feeling confident in my summoning.

I hate the thought of him auto-winning 2VP, but with only two dogs I go into turn 1 feeling strapped for corpses. If I draw bad, find myself hurting for crows and Mort botches Exhume even once, I suddenly feel behind the curve. I want both MZs for defense and the combat/utility models I need to win ... maybe I'm overestimating the need for surplus counters, I dunno.

I've considered hiring a Punk Zombie, surrounding it with Canine Remains during deployment and popping a Slice and Dice to max my corpse counter generation, granting Nico a nice turn 1 Arise opportunity. I'm not too crazy about it, the idea of hiring a Punk Zombie (I'd rather summon it), nor do I like the thought of sacrificing the potential of multiple Hunting Dogs w/ Bolster, capable of an alpha strike alongside Mortimer and his Zombie Companion ability chained with Man's Best Friend ... but how sweet it is, a bunch of dead dogs + Exhume for a nice little early game MZ group hug.

The only problem here is needing a 5+ mask.

EDIT: It just occurred to me, I suppose I could do the group hug like this: Hire the dogs, deploy them in a tight circle. Exhume, place the counter in amongst the tightly packed Canine Remains, summon the PZ with Nico ... Slice and Dice with the (1) action, despite being Slow ... or, should Exhume fail, I suppose I could ice one of the dogs by some other means, do it that way. Start a dog fight, see who come out on top (cheat low for no mod, cheat again for moderate damage). Not terribly AP or card friendly, but better than hiring a 5ss model that should otherwise be summoned.

The "only" problem here is needing two crows and a 5+ mask.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Hatchethead

[ravenborne]

That's what I use Sebastian for. He is 6 points, but packs a punch and can even heal.

Sebastian + 5 dogs:

1) Sebastian attacks a dog, kills it and gets a BP counter if lucky (for healing later) with melee expert.

2) Sebastian attacks a another dog, kills it and gets a BP counter if lucky (for healing later)

3) Sebastian does Bloody harvest killing other dogs.

4) Mort makes a grave counter

5) Nico does Arise and has 6 zombies. If well placed, they protect him from many threats.

6) Nico starts making undead.

Yes, if they take Kidnap its going to be tough. But any fight against neverborn is going to be...this is my biggest issue with Nicodem as a master, he has a hard time with a lot of schemes and scheme denial. He takes the most finesse and skill of any Ress Master to win with, IMHO.

I saw Zee beat Webber with something similar to this in a local tournament. Zee is a fantastic Nico player.

[ravenborne]

One other thing to note: If you have even one crow, Nico can go ahead and use it for reanimate for a Flesh Construct (soul stone if needed) and you get to draw two cards. This can really help with for casting it a second and maybe third time. I would prefer to make a couple punk zombies the first turn, but if crows are low F. Constructs, or if you really want the cards (and you guys allow the model) a rogue necromancy helps for cards.

[Hatchethead]

Interesting.

7ss Mortimer

6ss Sebastian

10ss Canines x 5

1ss Grave Spirit

Sounds like fun, definitely viable for 35ss with room for additional utility models. Only a 4 pool at 25ss. Drop one dog maybe, make it 6. Even then, I'm thinking the Hanged and/or Jack Daw are a must have versus the Dreamer, even in a low point game.

Something like:

7ss Mortimer

6ss Canines x 3

9ss Jack Daw

1ss Grave Spirit

Only a 5 pool. Sad face. I'd prefer to be closer to 7-8, but at 25ss I don't think that's viable. This may be the crew I run with next game.

Still, great idea. I'll definitely give it at try when we move on to higher point values. Thanks raven.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Hatchethead

[poulpox]

I just can't bare to kill a model myself in the first turn after having spent time painting it!!

[Hatchethead]

I just can't bare to kill a model myself in the first turn after having spent time painting it!!

Haha understandable. But hey! They still get to sit on the sideboard looking all painted and impressive, right?

[Q'iq'el]

I hate the very idea of taking Canines just to maximize on Body Counters.

So let's say you take just 2 - that's up to 2 actions you spend on killing them, possibly having to cheat down, at worst you may have to cheat high too. Then 2 actions to Reanimate the Counters, and you practically *have* to cheat those... And you force yourself to sacrifice these 4AP in the turn 1 or 2, when your crew should be doing their best to re-position itself and adapt to the opponent (never mind hoping to save high :crows for later turns).

If your Hand is bad or opponent puts the pressure in the wrong way, your reanimations may get delayed... what now? You fight him with just the master and 1~2 assistants? All his crew against 2 minions and Nico? I see an instant-loss right here.

5 Dogs is up to 10 AP lost. Even if he plays along and kills your dogs himself, you'd still be nothing but Reanimating for the half of your game!

In the end, your AP and your Control Cards are more precious a resource than your Soulstones. No matter how you spend your Soulstones, the opponent has just as many and no more than you. Unless it's another Resurrectionist or Outcast, his minions are more expensive. But if you start wasting large chunk of your AP and Control Cards to get just 2~3 minions more, you are actually giving him a very clear advantage in terms of APs he has at his disposal - not only a lot of your minions remains unproductive through 2~3 turns, but the fresh arrivals are Slow. It simply makes no sense to pay so much for undead minions.

I say, take no Canine Remains at all. They don't belong in Nicodem crews, unless you need some objective runners. Bring 1 or 2 Belles, Crooked Men, perhaps a Punk Zombie if you have enough SS. Add Mortimer and some form of heavy hitter on top and put the pressure on him starting turn 1.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Hatchethead]

I say' date=' take no Canine Remains at all. They don't belong in Nicodem crews, unless you need some objective runners. Bring 1 or 2 Belles, Crooked Men, perhaps a Punk Zombie if you have enough SS. Add Mortimer and some form of heavy hitter on top and put the pressure on him starting turn 1.[/quote']

Interesting.

In a Dreamer v. Nico encounter, how do you generate enough corpse counters to have any number of Mindless Zombies? The Dreamer crew isn't dropping them, Mort is digging up one per turn at best, your crew drops are recycled into replacement minions just to maintain the status quo. Meanwhile, the Dreamer is in your face on turn 2 and you then have to make a choice between Arise and Bolster (with Bolster winning out, I imagine), leaving you with maybe 1 MZ.

Does Nico even need MZs, in your opinion?

I'm not calling your strategy into question, mind you (I don't know enough about Nicodem to make a judgement); I'm simply curious how you would approach the situation.

[Q'iq'el]

I've never seen more than 3MZ in one game. I think it may change with the Avatar, but that's a future concern.

What you really need a MZ for is the threat of the total waste of an attack. You need them to cancel attacks you cannot cheat or soulstone, but as long as MZ are up, these attacks are unlikely to be coming - as long as 1 or 2 MZ are up, your opponent may not feel like cheating high or dropping a Soulstone on his attack - it may all be for nothing with a single MZ gone.

Besides, if you sacrifice MZ, your Corpse Counter gets lost too. If it makes sense to bring Bête Noire out of it, it mitigates the loss a bit, but it is still a resource wasted on something a mere cheat might have helped against.

Last but not least, if you use your Decay to target the opponents, you will be getting these MZ without the need for Arise. Sure, not that many at once, but if you need only 1 or 2, that's not a hindrance. (Just cheat the casts high and use blast to heal your minions, while the direct damage part goes on the opponent, rather than other way around. It's easier to get blast off if you target your own minions, and it makes sense if you want to go around targeting restriction, but the damage on the blast is constant and lowish, while the damage on the target can be cheated up and get pretty high)

I don't see a problem with using own Corpse Counters only. I play with and against Nicodem often enough, and when I play Lilith against Nicodem the matches he hits me the hardest are the matches where he doesn't Reanimate at all (or very little). The very fact that you can both heal and bring back your own dead troops is enough of an advantage. With time, you can swap dead Crooked Men for Punk Zombies for example - that's a power up for your crew right there.

Other than that, Mortimer alone is going to give you 2~3 Corpse Counters per game. Do you really need more extra minions?

The way I see it:

Reanimate: 1 AP of Nicodem's for 1 AP of a mere minion. The minion may get more action in the next turn, but by the next turn the opponent might have gained enough advantage on you to win the game. And that's just as true for turn 1 as for turn 5. When you Reanimate, you lose time and you are slower to begin with. Talk about playing to your disadvantage.

Rigor Mortis or Decay: A really powerful spells for Nico's 1 AP. It may kill something your opponent cannot bring back, it may disable his master or an important minion for an entire turn, buying you tons of time. You need time, your crew is slower.

Walk: if you can spare 1 or 2 AP per turn on walking, Nicodem suddenly is no slower than most other masters. Sure, they move faster per turn, but then they get stuck in melee for several turns and don't move at all... you can just steadily shamble your way across the board covering more ground thorough the game, if you need to. Sure, it is not your strongest option (probably the weakest, actually), but if you free Nicodem of the need to summon, it appears and it may win you the game - especially that it isn't something your opponent expects.

To Reanimate is to give Nicodem's own APs to weaker minions and at the same time to pigeonhole him into the static playstyle everybody knows how to counter and how to deal with. No wonder he's seen as a weak master by so many players. The thing is, you don't have to Reanimate at all and when you start using his spells, you start to appreciate the raw power of the master himself, which Summoner lists simply waste.

I may be exaggerating the disadvantages of Reanimating a bit, but that's to put in perspective the *real* cost of summoning undead models. Obviously, you are supposed to do this when needed and there are plenty of situations where a new summon is the best choice you can make. Just don't make it your default strategy, without realizing the staggering cost of every new undead you create. Is saving these 2~3SS (price difference between a Dog and a Crooked Man or a Punk) worth wasting Nicodem's time, 1~2 AP and 1~2 Control Cards (at least 1 high :crows at that) ?

Edited August 16, 2011 by Q'iq'el