Always watching vs Chameleon

[sharpobjects]

Can the watchers ability "always watching" and "sky Eye" cancel the silurid's chameleon?

[Calmdown]

They dont cancel it, but they do allow models to ignore it under the circumstances that the two abilities specify, yes.

[magicpockets]

Do they def win? What does the wording say as disabling effects trump enabling effects - i.e. cannot be targeted would beat can be targeted.

[Ropetus]

Chameleon is Cover. Always Watching allows models to ignore Cover. Always Watching wins Chameleon, as does Hunter and Bullet Bending etc.

-Ropetus

[marshimartian]

Chameleon is Cover. Always Watching allows models to ignore Cover. Always Watching wins Chameleon, as does Hunter and Bullet Bending etc.

-Ropetus

Wouldn't Silent beat Always Watching though, since models can't ignore cover (which Chameleon grants)?

[Ropetus]

Wouldn't Silent beat Always Watching though, since models can't ignore cover (which Chameleon grants)?

Silent prevents ignoring LoS. This means Silurids cannot be shot at without LoS by Austringers and protects them from Diving Charges.

Cover is in no way related to Silent.

-Ropetus

[Ferb]

Silent prevents ignoring LoS. This means Silurids cannot be shot at without LoS by Austringers and protects them from Diving Charges.

Cover is in no way related to Silent.

-Ropetus

The wording for Silent is 'Models cannot ignore cover when targeting this model.'

So how is cover not related to Silent. Have you got LoS & cover mixed up?

Ferb

[Turbodog]

Greets!

Anyone using Book 1 for this discussion, beware! Silurid abilities are different on their v2 card!

Silent: Models cannot ignore COVER when targeting this model

(0) Chameleon: This model receives soft COVER until it takes an action other than walk or pass.

***Silent stopped models from ignoring LOS in Book 1 - but the v2 card changed it.

So we go back to the OP question...

Silurid says "you can't ignore my cover"

Austringer or Watcher effect basically says "my weapon ignores cover"

Both are abilities printed on a card. Who wins?

Edited August 12, 2011 by Turbodog

[Ropetus]

Holy cr*p! I never even noticed that. Guess we Marshals can be mistaken at times as well .

Indeed, Silent prevents Always Watching, Hunter, Bullet Bending etc. from working.

-Ropetus

[magicpockets]

Oh, so now Austringers can target Slurids without LOS? Interesting development....

[sharpobjects]

What about the watchers weapon Sky Eye? To get this to work against a silurid, based on the above ruling regarding Always Watching, the watcher would have to hit the silurid in a duel with a negative twist to the watchers strike.

I believe that because a duel is required and the silurid gets his cover modifier, that if the watcher is still able to hit the model, then Sky Eye should remove the silurid's cover modifier until the end of the closing phase.

Edited August 13, 2011 by sharpobjects

[magicpockets]

What about the watchers weapon Sky Eye? To get this to work against a silurid, based on the above ruling regarding Always Watching, the watcher would have to hit the silurid in a duel with a negative twist to the watchers strike.

I believe that because a duel is required and the silurid gets his cover modifier, that if the watcher is still able to hit the model, then Sky Eye should remove the silurid's cover modifier until the end of the closing phase.

No, cannot always beats can, so the slurid wouldn't be affected

[marshimartian]

Oh, so now Austringers can target Slurids without LOS? Interesting development....

BUT I've seen it mentioned that a model that ignores los ignores cover, otherwise, it's always be hardcover (being that there's blocking terrain) So how does this work with Austringers ignoring los to Silurids?

[magicpockets]

I think you'd still get cover if you would qualify for cover (i.e. hiding behind a wall) but say an Austringer and Slurid were 18" apart with a building half way between them, this would block LOS (and thereby be ignored by Austringers) without conferring any cover (remember you have to be within 1 inch of cover for it to count)

[tat2dbowler]

A question came up today about chameleon. Do the effects end at resolve effects stage or can you activate that turn 1 and just walk until whenever.

[Buhallin]

A question came up today about chameleon. Do the effects end at resolve effects stage or can you activate that turn 1 and just walk until whenever.

Unless an ability specifies a duration or ending time, it ends during the closing phase.

So Chameleon, like most, works only for the rest of the turn you activate it in.

[tat2dbowler]

Thats,what I thought. And the ruling I woulve made. Thank you

[gnam]

Unless an ability specifies a duration or ending time, it ends during the closing phase.

So Chameleon, like most, works only for the rest of the turn you activate it in.

Chameleon does state "until this model performs an action other than walk or pass", would that not fall into the category of a "specified duration"?

[Rathnard]

Unless an ability specifies a duration or ending time, it ends during the closing phase.

So Chameleon, like most, works only for the rest of the turn you activate it in.

Chameleon specifies that it works until the model takes an action other than pass or walk. So it shouldn't actually expire at the end of turn.

[tat2dbowler]

I know thats how it works with abilities such as harmless. I just was under the impression that being an action it functioned differently and the "until this model takes any action other than walk or pass" was just an additional restriction.

[Buhallin]

Whoops. That's what I get for dropping that into the "Standard Responses to Standard Questions" bucket without looking deeper.

My apologies for the misdirection.

[tat2dbowler]

No problem, just wanted to know if we played it wrong. Thanks everyone for the help!

[Q'iq'el]

I know thats how it works with abilities such as harmless. I just was under the impression that being an action it functioned differently and the "until this model takes any action other than walk or pass" was just an additional restriction.

There's no such a thing as additional restriction here.

Either rule defines the timing, or there is no timing defined.

In the former case use the rule-defined timing to end the effect.

In the later case end in the Closing Phase.

The timings given in the rules are not in addition, but instead of the basic rules.

So the timing given here is the only timing you follow - when Silurid takes action other than walk or pass, it ends.

As a separate note, having re-read the thread, it is one of the most confusing threads on this forum. Plenty of mis-interpretations are being thrown around.

For example the rules for determining a Legal Target (page 14) and rules for determining LoS and granting Cover (page 15) are separate matter.

When your model has a talent that allows it to ignore cover, it means you determine LoS, check if the target is Legal (page 14) and conduct the ranged combat/casting duel as if the model had no cover.

When your model has a talent that allows it to ignore LoS, you determine LoS, declare the target as Legal even if the LoS is blocked and then conduct the ranged combat/casting duel giving the target all the benefits of the cover.

That's because, according to the rules from the pages 14 and 15, cover is granted if the model is obscured (defined on page 15) and this is independent from the check if the target is Legal or not. Even if you can completely ignore the LoS for the purpose of declaring target, you still draw the LoS lines to check if the model is obscured or not.

As far as I know, models which ignore LoS when conducting ranged strikes, also have separate talents that allow them to ignore cover. There's a need for having separate talents for both because these checks are separate. I can't say out of the top of my head if there are models that ignore LoS but not cover.

When it comes to Austringers, Perdita and Nephilim (discussed in this thread), Austringers specifically ignore both LoS and cover (and the reason why they have separate permission for each of those is explained above), Perdita doesn't ignore LoS (Bullet Bending affects only cover, so if the LoS is blocked, she can't shoot the target) and Nephilim don't have Ranged Strikes (so the cover doesn't matter to them).