Dead and gone or never born. How to choose?

[ObliterationPopsicle]

Hi all.

After many a year of WarmaHordesyness, I'm kinda all PPed out. I need something fresh. A more intimate feel. Something more, well interesting I guess.

Malifaux looks to fit the bill nicely.

After going through rules, backstory, battle reports and miniature galleries until my eyes bled, I remain undecided: Resser or Neverborn. Thus I come, seeking your wisdom.

There is one master in each of these factions that captures my imagination: Kirai and Zoraida, and dammit, I just can't choose.

What do I want? Good question.

The basics about me and Malifaux:

I want to invest in one faction and two masters (initially at least).

I am competitive and like the tourney scene, but I'd rather rise or fall on skill and knowledge than uber models or combos.

I like flexibility and complexity in my forces. The more straight forward forces tend to bore me a little.

So I guess what it comes down to for me at this stage is this: who will be my second(ary) master?

Given my initial preferences for masters, who would you choose as an effective backup? What is out there that Kirai / Zoraida are not well equipped to deal with - whether it be schemes, masters, models, combos etc. - and who would you turn to in faction to fill those gaps?

Grateful for any and all advice!

Edited August 10, 2011 by R1ptide

[Talishko]

Come to the dark side!

Ressers all the way.

On a serious note, I think you managed to pick 2 complex masters for both factions. Some would say that Zoraida doesn't need backup, she can achieve anything on her own. It is worth listening to the aethervox podcast where Rathnard made a rundown on how she works. Basically you have many various options with her so you can assemble your crew for whatever you want to focus on. The Dreamer crew is a nice addition to the collection with her, they have some exchangable models in their crews and the Dreamer plays differently from everyone. So does Z, mind you. Probably a lot of Neverborn experts will give you better run down on this matter though.

Kiraii is something I'm not very good at. Although I am a rezzer player and love all the other masters, Kiraii is just not my playstyle. She is very good though (possibly the most competitive master of the faction) but as opposed to the other masters she is not very resilient. Any of the other masters would compliment her well, although I would pick Seamus for he is a lot less summoning based and better at board control. He is quite a survivor too. If you want to go down the summoning and direct hitting line then McMourning. If you'd rather summon and buff your minions and hit hard with them, then Nicodem (he himself is quite squishy though). Nico is also the 'mentor' of Kiraii, fluff wise, although she never paid much attention to him.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Talishko

[xxXhayzelXxx]

noooooooooooooo! ignore the blasted dude above me!

You sir need the neverborn. We are the original beings of Malifaux and we deem that we should take back what is rightfully ours.

Anyway, Neverborn offer complexity and simplicity all in one.

Zoraida is a wonderful choice! Maybe Collodi or the Dreamer as a back up?

[Talishko]

On the other hand, sooner or later even you will end up dead and in our hands.

[Calmdown]

(Im going to reference Tiers here, which not everyone agrees with, and that's mostly because people like to think this game is perfectly balanced And I'm going to talk to you as a tournament player and not a newbie, for which people will flame me while telling you to pick what has the best fluff)

You've picked two of the strongest masters in the game. Kirai is straight up Tier 1 (like...eDenny tier) and Zoraida is arguably Tier 1 or 1.5 (like...pKreoss tier).

Either one of them will both fulfil your criteria. They both have a high skill cap, and they both have a lot of flexibility both in force building and in how you play even with the same models, game to game.

As a faction Neverborn have more top level masters - they're the only faction with two masters in Tier 1 (Pandora and Dreamer), and all of their other masters are Tier 1.5 at worst. Their henchman is also pretty hardcore (1/1.5) as a master. Rezzers are a middle-of-the-road faction, with one Tier 1 master (Kirai), one Tier 1.5 (Seamus), and the rest all dubious.

So picking competitively as a faction, there is no question that Neverborn as a whole offer more options. But Rezzers are capable of being competitive too. Also, there is a new book just out so all of this may change.

The good masters of both factions lend themselves to control-oriented players; Rezzers universally summon things in addition, and Neverborn tend to have more control piled on top of that initial control. Both factions are also capable of very aggressive direct damage.

The decision is probably; do you prefer outright control, or do you prefer summoning?

[alienated one]

I am competitive and like the tourney scene, but I'd rather rise and fall on skill and knowledge than uber models or combos.

I think you just answered your own question there. Ressers are the choice for you. Neverborn is full of uber models and "broken" combos.

[ObliterationPopsicle]

Thanks for the advice thus far folks. All useful.

To answer your question Calmdown (control vs summoning), I guess I know control better from my PP choices and play style and am comfortable with it. Summoning was never really a feature of what I did with Cryx or Menoth so I'm not really sure whether it's a plus or a meh for me really.

What I do like about both Kirai and Zoraida is immense maneuverability and the fact that they are support - i.e. their crews tend to do the heavy lifting for them. What I don't really know is what are the downsides to this style? How does Z handle Hamelin spam or immune to influence crews? How does Kirai handle ranged magic artillery from Ras or Cridd?

Perhaps my final choice lies in the faction that contains the most secondary interest for me. If I'm being honest, Seamus is the only other Resser that interests me. He's a great character and his style is certainly a change up from Kirai. The question is, does he cover for Kirai's weak spots?

As far as the NB go, Lilith doesn't really interest me, Pandora and Collodi are interesting but don't seem wildly different to Z in terms of what they can and can't handle, which leaves Dreamer. To me he seems almost too straight forward or formulaic or something. How much complexity is really there for a competitive Dreamer crew? Is the Dreamer players first question at the top of turn one something along the lines of "Right, how can I deliver this package of nightmares to kill x and basically win me the game?"

[ukrocky]

Cryx or Menoth

Heh. And you don't want broken models?

Honestly, for flexibility but fairly broken, it's gotta be Neverborn.

For more straightforward crew builds that aren't as good as (IMO) neverborn, you have the ressers.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Two words...Undead Hookers... the choice is clear.

[Calmdown]

To answer your question Calmdown (control vs summoning), I guess I know control better from my PP choices and play style and am comfortable with it. Summoning was never really a feature of what I did with Cryx or Menoth so I'm not really sure whether it's a plus or a meh for me really.

I mean, dont get me wrong - Rezzers are control too. I'm a control player as well. Neverborn have control with a side helping of extra control choices (Pandora/Zoraida), whereas Rezzers have control with a side helping of summoning. Neverborn arent better at it per se, they just have more ways to do it. This is horrible generalisation of the faction but is probably appropriate to the masters that I think will appeal to you.

What I do like about both Kirai and Zoraida is immense maneuverability and the fact that they are support - i.e. their crews tend to do the heavy lifting for them. What I don't really know is what are the downsides to this style? How does Z handle Hamelin spam or immune to influence crews? How does Kirai handle ranged magic artillery from Ras or Cridd?

Every master handles different stuff differently. Personally the magic artillery crews (Raspy/Sonnia) have been my easiest matchups with Kirai since they're so easy to outmaneuver. Very few crews are 'immune to influence', they just tend to have a few models, so you control everything else and beat them up the old fashioned way. Etc.

Perhaps my final choice lies in the faction that contains the most secondary interest for me. If I'm being honest, Seamus is the only other Resser that interests me. He's a great character and his style is certainly a change up from Kirai. The question is, does he cover for Kirai's weak spots?

This is the important bit; nothing else in Rezzers plays like Kirai, or is as good as Kirai (broadly speaking), whereas Neverborn have more power options and more other routes for you to go whilst staying in the same style.

Seamus is also awesome for sure, but he's not Pandora awesome, or Dreamer awesome. Necessarily anyways, comes down to player skill of course.

As far as the NB go, Lilith doesn't really interest me, Pandora and Collodi are interesting but don't seem wildly different to Z in terms of what they can and can't handle, which leaves Dreamer. To me he seems almost too straight forward or formulaic or something. How much complexity is really there for a competitive Dreamer crew? Is the Dreamer players first question at the top of turn one something along the lines of "Right, how can I deliver this package of nightmares to kill x and basically win me the game?"

Yes, basically. Although good players > bad players in this game even more so than many others, Dreamer is pretty formulaic. You drop your package, get board control, then do some objectives. That's not really incredibly different to Kirai, though Kirai has other ways she can win than direct confrontation and she's a little more involved to play. I dont play Dreamer though, so that's just my take on it.

Zoraida and Pandora are wildly different in playstyle and model selection. Collodi is getting very interesting with the new book and a load more choices. It sounds to me like Neverborn are where you want to go. I'll caveat that by saying I'm hyper competitive and don't really care about anything else in terms of faction choice (as in: I still love playing for fun but wouldnt let fun factor alone determine my faction), and I play Rezzers.

[Hookers]

Two words...Undead Hookers... the choice is clear.

/singed

[dgraz]

What I do like about both Kirai and Zoraida is immense maneuverability and the fact that they are support - i.e. their crews tend to do the heavy lifting for them. What I don't really know is what are the downsides to this style? How does Z handle Hamelin spam or immune to influence crews? How does Kirai handle ranged magic artillery from Ras or Cridd?

Perhaps my final choice lies in the faction that contains the most secondary interest for me. If I'm being honest, Seamus is the only other Resser that interests me. He's a great character and his style is certainly a change up from Kirai. The question is, does he cover for Kirai's weak spots?

No offence intended, but I think this thought process is slightly askew. You can not concern yourself with how to handle the Dreamer or Hamelin. You need to concern yourself with Strategies. When you ask if Master 'B' can cover weak spots that Master 'A' has, it needs to be in Strategies.

If you sit down across from someone and they announce Neverborn...you don't know whether you are facing the Dreamer, Pandora, or Lilith. You will know what you're Strategy is. You need to build a collection that can handle any Strategy. So if you're playing Rezzer and you flip Strategy, you take Kirai - since her crew kills things. But if you flip Claim Jump, you might want something with a little more staying power like Seamus.

[osoi]

+1 dgraz

Kirai and Seamus actually have a little bit of crossover in minions too which helps.

My choice would be to go the Ressers, I am a little biased but so be it. Both Kirai and Seamus are competitive and have a lot of variety and nuances in their playstyle so should keep you occupied for a long while without getting bored.

[ObliterationPopsicle]

No offence intended, but I think this thought process is slightly askew. You can not concern yourself with how to handle the Dreamer or Hamelin. You need to concern yourself with Strategies. When you ask if Master 'B' can cover weak spots that Master 'A' has, it needs to be in Strategies.

None taken dgraz. In fact this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to get some info on. I think the problem might be that I didn't make something clear at the outset - I don't know what I'm on about. I've not actually played a game as yet and, coming from a different system in PP's games, the whole Strategy thing is a bit misty to me at the moment.

I assume that my original question is still valid though? What Strategies are Zoraida and Kirai generally not that great at, and who in their respective factions finds those particular ones easier? I'm sure that the answer to that could be endless, but generalisations will serve.

So far from what ppl have said here, I'm picking up that Seamus is a suitable foil for Kirai - his endurance and ability to mess with the enemy vs. her maneuverability and strike power. Not getting so much of a sense as far as Zoraida is concerned. Maybe Dreamer?

All said and done though I think I have made my choice.

It's not about power. Never was really. Although I do like to be competitive, the win ain't what keeps me engaged. In hindsight bringing up competitiveness at the get go probably skewed this discussion away from what I was hoping to find out more about - which of the other faction masters would complement my initial preferences (and then do I like those masters)?

However this discussion has made me reflect upon what it is about Z and Kirai that attracted me to them in the first place?

For one - she is cool, she is different. I like the way she operates and her faction gets some of the coolest stuff. But - many of her peers and the faction in general leaves me feeling like I somehow want something more.

For the other - it is everything about her. Model, backstory, the way she goes about her business in game, through to models she would typically field and the rest of her faction (almost) as a whole.

And so I declare myself for the denied. The betrayed. Those for whom vengeance is life (and for those who are generally just a bit emo).

I choose death.

I choose Kirai.

Also - undead hookers! Huzzah!

Edited August 11, 2011 by R1ptide

[Calmdown]

I choose death.

I choose Kirai.

1) Buy 2 Shikome

2) ...

3) Profit

[4) Join Shikomaholics anonymous]

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree having two Shikome is nice, but I've not once in the time I've played Kirai felt that I needed the second Shikome. She would be nice to have if you have the money for the initial investent, but not necessary. I will however say, you DO definitely want at least one.

[pgbsamurai]

Damn, lost another one to the vile undead, and to Kirai no less. I blame you Fetid :eviltongu.

[Hatchethead]

I choose death.

I choose Kirai.

Also - undead hookers! Huzzah!

We win. Again.

/thread

[dgraz]

Since it appears that your intent is to be competitive in an all around style - I think you have chosen well. I don't believe either Seamus or Kirai are unbeatable, so they are fun to play against and they can both do things that the other can't, with pretty different play styles - so they're fun to play. I actually have no Rezzer crews myself, but I did try Kirai for a while and I consistently face Seamus.

Kirai is great at moving sedately across the board and killing anything that gets too close. Seamus is great for board control and speed. A Seamus / Molly / Belle crew has to be one of the fastest crews in the game.

Anyway, since you said that you don't know what you're doing here, the important part of my post...forget PP while playing this. I play Trolls, so I'm not bashing PP in any way, but what I can't stand (after playing Mali) is the scenarios. They have many cool ideas 'you win if you do this or this', but they ALL end with 'or if you kill the enemy caster'. If that part was out on a few, I'd like it a lot more. You can play certain armies that specialize in assassination and never have to worry about any scenario. There is virtually no caster kill in Mali. There are about 10 strategies and only one is caster kill.

It is more important in most games to distract or delay the opponent's master than outright kill it. Seamus is so hard to put down, I hardly ever even bother attacking him anymore. I just press him a little while the rest of my crew is focused on my strategy.

Look at the strategies and consider which of your masters would be good at which. Then you need to determine which schemes your masters are good at. And finally which schemes that your master is good at that go along with the strategies that their good at. Some schemes you will take just because your master excels at them and some you will take because they coincide with the strategy.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. Using Seamus since he is one of your choices. Almost before doing anything, if you know you're playing him, you can pretty much safely choose the scheme 'Bodyguard' - you're master must live. Seamus is one of the hardest masters in the game to put down - and you can also usually announce this without any real fear.

Let's say that you flip Treasure Hunt as your strategy and you choose Seamus (since I think he is good at that) You need to get the treasure counter and keep that model alive to get it into your DZ. I think a pretty good choice for that is Sybelle linked with the Grave Spirit. So she is going for the treasure and the rest of your crew is focused on keeping her alive.

The enemy crew will be chasing her and you'll want to keep your crew fairly close together, so for schemes anything that requires you to be on the other side of the board is out. Since the enemy is coming for you, you could pick an enemy that is a fighter and choose 'Grudge' (kill it with a melee strike) on them - that model should be coming for you anyway so you should have plenty of time to kill it - if you announce it and the enemy tries to keep it away, you can always 'Lure' it with the Belles.

I'm sure a Rezzer player will come along and tell you how to do this better, but it is just an example of how you need to think before the actual battle. And also how you need to think during the battle - don't get distracted and forget your schemes. If you complete your objectives and the enemy gets over excited killing you off and forget theirs, you'll win even if you're wiped off the board just by VP.

Um, wow that was long.

[CannibalBob]

Anyway, since you said that you don't know what you're doing here, the important part of my post...forget PP while playing this. I play Trolls, so I'm not bashing PP in any way, but what I can't stand (after playing Mali) is the scenarios. They have many cool ideas 'you win if you do this or this', but they ALL end with 'or if you kill the enemy caster'. If that part was out on a few, I'd like it a lot more. You can play certain armies that specialize in assassination and never have to worry about any scenario. There is virtually no caster kill in Mali. There are about 10 strategies and only one is caster kill.

I have a full army of Trollkin, Mercenaries (all of them), and Minions (all of them too), and I have got so sick of Warmachine/Hordes that I have no desire to work on any models or drag them out to play a game.

While I like the core mechanics of the game (with some exceptions - I prefer alternate activation and I think most models dish out too much damage overall) I really detest the win conditions for the Privateer Press games. Honestly, pretty much every single game devolves into an assassination game. It is just so annoying anymore since there is not really much diversity in the game. It also makes a number of casters problematic since many are designed to work close range but in general are not too hard to kill.

Even the scenarios they made don't generally help since so many of them are basically unwinnable against a decent opponent other than through assassination. And most of them are simply of the "put a bunch of models in X area and don't die" variety. They tend to mainly funnel the armies together and facilitate quicker assassinations.

I would like something more dynamic and interesting to fight for. So far, thats my favorite part of Malifaux - the objective oriented nature of the game. While a lot of combat happens, the game does not simply boil down to killing the other guys toys. And it is nice that the death of a master does not immediately end the game.