Is Reactivate a Talent? - Hoffman

[TalonRaven]

I'm checking on the legality of this, because I think it's a pretty darn powerful combo...

C.Hoffman has a spell called (2) Overwrite Edict...

Activate target Construct after this model's activation ends. If the target Construct has activated previously this turn, it gains Reactivate. This model's Controller controls the target during this activation After this activation, the target cannot activate again this turn

... and an action called (0) Assimilate

This model gains one Talent or Spell possessed by target Construct within 6". Effects that reference a model by name cannot by assimilated

Now, consider the scenario where Hoffman casts Overwrite Edict on a Peacekeeper, who has already activated during that turn thus gaining the ability Reactivate.

According to Rules Manual, pg 34, Action Modifiers, Reactivate is one of the four Abilities that is collectively known as Action Modifiers. On pg 12, Abilities are defined as a Talent. Therefore, Reactivate is a Talent, and Hoffman can use (0) Assimilate to gain Reactivate, allowing him to go again during that turn. Well, not immediately after, but the point is that he gets to go again.

I searched on the forums, but this thread was inconclusive on the Hoffman Assimilating Reactivate, and I felt that the main issue relies on two things:

1) Is Reactivate a Talent?

2) If a Construct "gains" a Talent, does it count as "possessing" it for purposes of Assimilate?

[tadaka]

This has come up a number of times if it was just yep thats right rat would have said so by now. Im sure they are working on how they want to work this one

[findersbane]

Override edict's wording does not state it receives 'Reactivate' it just says activate target construct regardless of if it has activated or not this turn so I don't think it can be assimilated.

[LoboStele]

Override edict's wording does not state it receives 'Reactivate' it just says activate target construct regardless of if it has activated or not this turn so I don't think it can be assimilated.

Umm...may want to read your cards again.

[sharpobjects]

The Book 2 description and Hoffmans actual card are a little different. He might be going by Book 2. Hoffman's card states "gains reactivate" in its description of Override Edict.

[findersbane]

The Book 2 description and Hoffmans actual card are a little different. He might be going by Book 2. Hoffman's card states "gains reactivate" in its description of Override Edict.

Yes, sorry I only had the book to go from.

[Dolomyte]

Yes, sorry I only had the book to go from.

yeah, the books are mostly worthless. you can get an idea of how the models work, but they have no doubt been numerous substantial changes =p

[nilus]

yeah, the books are mostly worthless. you can get an idea of how the models work, but they have no doubt been numerous substantial changes =p

There is a thread here that tracks it. Hoffman needs the updated listed in this thread though

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19972

[FearLord]

yeah, the books are mostly worthless. you can get an idea of how the models work, but they have no doubt been numerous substantial changes =p

Depends which print of the book you have...

[Caleb]

We still need a RM here :hmpf:

[nny]

Bumperdebump

[Keltheos]

Bumping this for...oh wait...

Will get back to you all. For now, although Zee's ruling stood at GenCon it may not stand once we've had our heads together on it. You bring up some interesting thoughts on it.

Regardless on how it's ruled there's no infinite loop that can be set off here a model can't Reactivate more than once per turn, so let's be clear that won't be changing.

[Turbodog]

Thanks for the heads up, Kel.

As much as I'd love the boost to Hoff's power (as a Hoffman player). I really hope for the game's sake you all decide that you can't assimilate reactivate. It "feels" to me to be over the top (I don't think Hoffman needs this trick) and I don't want to face all the lists with Lazarus who assimilates Reactivate on turn 1 and then keeps it for the rest of the game. Ugh.

[TalonRaven]

Frankly, I don't think it's a huge deal, as it's only 3 (at most) AP for Hoffman, the most he can do is cast Override Edict on another target...

In my opinion, it adds one or two more activations for Hoffman, who can be out-maneuvred by more numerous armies. It levels him on that field.

[Caleb]

Frankly, I don't think it's a huge deal, as it's only 3 (at most) AP for Hoffman, the most he can do is cast Override Edict on another target...

Yes, and if you want to cast it again, you need a ~ 8+ :masks in hand (or cheat with a soulstone). It's not easy to cast it in the first place without cheating...

[Cunning]

He's more likely to machine puppet i'd have thought.

We currently play that he can assimilate reactivate so usually i have hoffman and the peacekeeper together. PK moves and pulls Hoffman along.

Hoffman overrides edict on the PK and assimilates reactivate. Peacekeeper should be able to get close enough to attack something by now and does so.

Then hoffman then makes himself fast and the PK slow and does 3 machine puppets.

Next turn Hoffman makes himself fast again with no extra effect on the PK.

I agree that without being able to assimilate he loses out against a lot of other crews so hoping it will be ruled this way.

[LoboStele]

Wow, I hadn't thought about the implication with Lazarus and being able to permanently Assimilate Reactivate. That alone could keep this from being ruled in favor of Hoffman. Still though, costs you 2 Scrap Counters to do it with Lazarus, so may not be THAT broken. We'll see.

[sharpobjects]

Before everyone get's their panties in a bunch, I recently played several games against a Ramos led crew hiring Lazarus.

The only way Lazarus is going to move up the board on turn 1 with 2 scrap counters is by sacrificing two 30mm or one 40mm model. The cheaper way for him to get his scrap counters early is for Ramos to do a (2) salvage under fire and Lazarus assimilate (2) salvage under fire. Then he sits at the deployment zone until turn 2.

Lazarus has to get within 6 inches of a construct that has been given reactivate by Hoffman’s override edict. I have burned down Lazarus twice with Ryle before he was able to do that. On a third game, Lazarus was able to get within 6 inches but was unable to actually use the assimilated reactivate because I killed him with Hoffman.

Lazarus is not un-killable by any means. He has 9 wounds, defense 4 and armor 1 that cannot be avoided. Big deal. The constructs that Hoffman can bring have high damage output including Hoffman.

Personally, I think a player that spends the out of faction points on Lazarus needs to be very careful when using him against Hoffman.

Another defense that Hoffman has against Lazarus is to go avatar early and not push way up the board with the peacekeeper on turn 1.

There are crazy shenanigans that other masters can do that people applaud and say wow that’s great. Such as the dreamer moving from deployment to deployment zone, LCB comes out and kills a model/buries and then the dreamer pops back up in his own deployment zone. Wash/rinse/repeat and zero retaliation by your opponent. This is just one example off the top of my head.

I think this is a nice tool for Hoffman to have. I have lost several games even using assimilates reactivate. It’s not the be all end all. As far as Lazarus, bring em on I got something for ya

[LoboStele]

Before everyone get's their panties in a bunch, I recently played several games against a Ramos led crew hiring Lazarus.

The only way Lazarus is going to move up the board on turn 1 with 2 scrap counters is by sacrificing two 30mm or one 40mm model. The cheaper way for him to get his scrap counters early is for Ramos to do a (2) salvage under fire and Lazarus assimilate (2) salvage under fire. Then he sits at the deployment zone until turn 2.

Lazarus has to get within 6 inches of a construct that has been given reactivate by Hoffman’s override edict. I have burned down Lazarus twice with Ryle before he was able to do that. On a third game, Lazarus was able to get within 6 inches but was unable to actually use the assimilated reactivate because I killed him with Hoffman.

Lazarus is not un-killable by any means. He has 9 wounds, defense 4 and armor 1 that cannot be avoided. Big deal. The constructs that Hoffman can bring have high damage output including Hoffman.

Personally, I think a player that spends the out of faction points on Lazarus needs to be very careful when using him against Hoffman.

Another defense that Hoffman has against Lazarus is to go avatar early and not push way up the board with the peacekeeper on turn 1.

There are crazy shenanigans that other masters can do that people applaud and say wow that’s great. Such as the dreamer moving from deployment to deployment zone, LCB comes out and kills a model/buries and then the dreamer pops back up in his own deployment zone. Wash/rinse/repeat and zero retaliation by your opponent. This is just one example off the top of my head.

I think this is a nice tool for Hoffman to have. I have lost several games even using assimilates reactivate. It’s not the be all end all. As far as Lazarus, bring em on I got something for ya

FWIW, this is slightly off-topic, but you can do the trick with Lazarus MUCH easier by using a Large Steampunk Arachnid, killing it for 3 Scrap Counters, and then having the Brass Arachnid use Stoke on something, then Lazarus Assimilates it. Not as tough to pull off as you'd think. Also rather situational though, and honestly, if you're playing your crew that way, it's probably not a tournament-optimal build anyways, so probably isn't a balance issue for Lazarus.

The other way to do it is in a Levi crew, to have Rusty Alyce cast Burn Out on something cheap like a Steampunk Abomination, and then Lazarus can Assimilate Reactivate that way. Either way you slice it, costing you 2 Scrap Counters is a semi-hefty price, but it gets you 2 extra AP every single turn for the rest of the game (3 if you count Melee Expert I suppose). So I'd say it's worth the Scrap.

[sharpobjects]

In theory, yes the brass arachnid can help Lazarus assimilate reactivate much sooner then relying on trying to get it from a construct that has been given reactivate from Hoffman.

I would not call it easier. The BA needs an 11 tomb to get off stoke. I stopped using the BA in favor of the Mobile Toolkit because I was rarely seeing 11+ tombs in round 1 or any other round for that matter. It’s too high of a specific card. Plus the MT gives an extra tomb to Ramos which overwhelming helps him get his expensive spells off. Further more, if you want to waste a 5SS model to get him 2 scrap, that would be fine by me.

Rusty Alice needs a 10 tomb to get off burn out. You also need to dispense with some models in order for Lazarus to get his 2 scrap early. All these scenarios are not that easy. You need high cards and scrap counters. Unless you use the salvage under fire scenario and then you just forfeit a turn sitting at the deployment zone.

I forgot to mention the results of the 4th game. I mixed up Hoffman’s crew a bit by not hiring Ryle and the MT and instead I hired 2 austringers and the drill sergeant.

My opponent decided to deploy the BA instead of the MT. By this 4th game he was tired of trying to get lasers within 6 inches of my construct with reactivate. He spent turn 1 on salvage under fire x2 and drew a high tomb on turn 2 to get off stoke. Lazarus assimilated reactivate for the remainder of the game and started to move up the board.

I activated an austringer, fired from 18 inches, paired CB7 versus DF4. I delivered orders to the other austringer, fired. They did a combined total 6 damage after subtracting armor. I then delivered orders to Hoffman who machine puppet a watcher CB6 versus DF4. I fired 3 times and did the final 3 damage on Lazarus.

A perdita crew could easily pull this off as well. I agree that if an opponent allows Lazarus to run around for most of the game with reactivate he will cause severe devastation.

On a side note, assimilating reactivate isn’t the worse case scenario. How about Lazarus assimilating Use Soul stone for the rest of the game, eh? Here is a nice triple combo for Lazarus if you can get 6 scrap counters in a game before he is killed.

Assimilate reactivate, assimilate use soul stone and assimilate slow to die ftw.

[LoboStele]

In theory, yes the brass arachnid can help Lazarus assimilate reactivate much sooner then relying on trying to get it from a construct that has been given reactivate from Hoffman.

I would not call it easier. The BA needs an 11 tomb to get off stoke. I stopped using the BA in favor of the Mobile Toolkit because I was rarely seeing 11+ tombs in round 1 or any other round for that matter. It’s too high of a specific card. Plus the MT gives an extra tomb to Ramos which overwhelming helps him get his expensive spells off. Further more, if you want to waste a 5SS model to get him 2 scrap, that would be fine by me.

Rusty Alice needs a 10 tomb to get off burn out. You also need to dispense with some models in order for Lazarus to get his 2 scrap early. All these scenarios are not that easy. You need high cards and scrap counters. Unless you use the salvage under fire scenario and then you just forfeit a turn sitting at the deployment zone.

No different than the typical BA vs. MT discussions, and there are ways to do it. I didn't say it would happen all the time, but certainly, if you plan to run Lazarus with Ramos, you're much more likely to be able to Assimilate Reactivate if you run the Brass Arachnid, rather than taking the chance that you might end up facing a Hoffman crew.

And Alyce only needs an 8 of any card at best to cast Burn Out, because she can use either Ramos or Levi's Ca stat instead of her own, both of which already start with a :tomes. So, actually quite easy to pull it off with her. Yes, the 11 :tomes with the BA is tough to get, but oftentimes, if I'm going to play the BA with Ramos, I like running Alyce as well, and it makes it not quite so tough to get those high cards when you're cycling through 2 extra cards thanks to Alyce. That's 21 points for Alyce, Lazarus, and BA in a Ramos crew, which doesn't leave much for anything else. So, as I said before, probably mostly a fun list for Ramos, and not highly competitive. Should work much better with Levi though.

[sharpobjects]

No different than the typical BA vs. MT discussions, and there are ways to do it. I didn't say it would happen all the time, but certainly, if you plan to run Lazarus with Ramos, you're much more likely to be able to Assimilate Reactivate if you run the Brass Arachnid, rather than taking the chance that you might end up facing a Hoffman crew.

True /agree

And Alyce only needs an 8 of any card at best to cast Burn Out, because she can use either Ramos or Levi's Ca stat instead of her own, both of which already start with a :tomes. So, actually quite easy to pull it off with her.

I forgot about her ability impressionable.

That's 21 points for Alyce, Lazarus, and BA in a Ramos crew, which doesn't leave much for anything else. So, as I said before, probably mostly a fun list for Ramos, and not highly competitive. Should work much better with Levi though.

Ouch, lazarus is gonna need reactivate every turn to make up for the small crew you would field

[sharpobjects]

It seems the way this back and forth discussion has shifted from Hoffman to more of Lazarus, that it is Lazarus that would be receiving more of a benefit to assimilating reactivate for the remainder of the game than for Hoffman assimilating reactivate after he as spent (2) AP and a mask to succesfully cast override edict.

Maybe the discarding of two scrap on Lazarus needs a closer look.

[Turbodog]

Retracted until I can word this thought better.

[FearLord]

I don't think its a problem, even for Lazarus - its powerful, but its hardly overpowered...

[Jonas Albrecht]

Did this ever come up in playtesting? Hoffman being able to reactivate on a turn by turn basis? If not, he's been given a deliriously good power that he hasn't been playtested with. That alone should cause the ruling to bar Assimilating Reactivate.