Turbodog Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Okay, honestly, this idea is my preschool sons...not mine. Peaeckeeper hits model and does 4 damage. Peacekeeper chooses "toss" trigger. Peacekeeper pushes model 4" - DIRECTLY UP!!! Model proceeds to fall 4" and takes 2/4/6 damage flip from falling! So what do people think about a Peacekeeper playing with his food? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Bigkid Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 I'd send him to bed with no supper! Then ring Mensa.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BigGreen Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 To my knowledge a push has to be a legal move. "Up" is not a legal move for most models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Hookers Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 The move is legal, however there will be no damage flip from falling Falling is defined on page 38. If a model without Flight or Float is moved off an elevation by a game effect or elects to fall down from an elevation, .... It describes the circumstances under which falling is defined and a damage flip would occur. Since neither of those situations is happening in this instance, the model is not "falling" as defined by the game and no damage flip will result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CubertFarnsworth Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 well first off.................can you EVEN push up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Hookers Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 I dont see why not. Pushes When a game effect Pushes a model, it is moved the distance indicated by the effect causing the Push. Usually the ability itself says in what direction, such as towards, directly towards, to within, etc., but the rules manual itself does not limit the direction in which you may be pushed. I gotta give bonus points for creativity on this one though :paralyzedpuppet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 CubertFarnsworth Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 The move is legal, however there will be no damage flip from falling Falling is defined on page 38. It describes the circumstances under which falling is defined and a damage flip would occur. Since neither of those situations is happening in this instance, the model is not "falling" as defined by the game and no damage flip will result. I was with you at first Hookers, but the more I look at this rule I have convinced myself otherwise. Looking at it again, I think it is falling down. Technically it is falling down from an elevation. (the 4" up) And yes it is electing to fall down because it has no other choice. I think that is a BRILLIANT move!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Bigkid Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 But one that would probably result in an embarrasing visit to A&E to explain how a small miniature robot got lodged inside you! At first glance it seems borderline Genius (you still blaming your son??) but it just seems wrong. And getting away from game systems infested by rule-bending 'cheese-mongers' is what attracted us to the wonderful world of Malifaux in the first place, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Hookers Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Elevations are defined as terrain if you flip the page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ratty Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 pushes are defined in the rule book, as a move that ignores disengaging strikes. As you models can't walk directly up normally, they also can't push directly up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Turbodog Posted July 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 @Bigkid - Yup, totally blame him when I'm feeding him lunch in his high chair and after disciplining him telling him NOT to throw food across the table anymore he smiles at me mischieviously and throws it directly upwards. ...it's not across the table... Ugh. It's hard being a parent sometimes. But you got me - i just used his inspiration and it was I that throught about what about in Malifaux. --- On that note, perhaps I did something wrong in a game a little while back. There was a model standing on height 4 terrain and I hit it with the chain spear. I proceded to "drag" it off the cliff and we ruled it fell 4" (having nothing to stand on). Judging from what people are saying about the toss not being a legal move and/or model not actually at that height - did we do that wrong? Just curious. It was funny during the game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Hookers Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 pushes are defined in the rule book, as a move that ignores disengaging strikes. As you models can't walk directly up normally, they also can't push directly up. Except a push is not a walk and a "move" is undefined. Furthermore: (1)Walk This model moves up to is Wk in inches. This may be in any direction and does not need to be in a straight line. A model may walk into melee combat if it chooses I can walk up all I want. Have at you! :fight: Walking up will now be my default action instead of Pass. :trytofly: Huzzah! :ridinghor :thcow2: :frusty: :club: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 thatnicguy Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Now it's time to teach your son about 'house rules' in your house your peacekeeper can throw a enemy into the air all he wants just dont try it at a tournament Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ropetus Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 On that note, perhaps I did something wrong in a game a little while back. There was a model standing on height 4 terrain and I hit it with the chain spear. I proceded to "drag" it off the cliff and we ruled it fell 4" (having nothing to stand on). Judging from what people are saying about the toss not being a legal move and/or model not actually at that height - did we do that wrong? Just curious. It was funny during the game... There is nothing wrong with this move. Models already standing on elevations can be dragged down from the platform with effects that Push them "directly towards" (like Drag) or any direction you want (Toss). They then proceed to take falling damage. What you cannot do is pushing models where they could not walk. Models can walk over the edge of a roof and fall down voluntarily (it's just a bit stupid) but they cannot walk directly up without Flight. -Ropetus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Soundwave Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 So you can't lure people off edges if you stand down on the ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ropetus Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 So you can't lure people off edges if you stand down on the ground? Check the Rules Manual for "towards" and "directly towards". With "directly towards", you draw a straight line between the models and move along that. If there is an obstacle in the way, the move stops. If there is a bottomless pit in the way, it's a long fall ahead of you. With "towards" the model avoids any obstacles and terrain that would slow it down. It also has the option of going around any hazardous terrain, such as lava flows or falls off cliffs. "Directly towards" = just frakking get there! "Towards" = get there, but don't die trying -Ropetus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 magicpockets Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 So you can't lure people off edges if you stand down on the ground? With "towards" the model avoids any obstacles and terrain that would slow it down. It also has the option of going around any hazardous terrain, such as lava flows or falls off cliffs. Neither of these things preclude Soundwaves situation though - falling of an elevated piece of terrain neither slows you down (in fact it would likely speed you up ) or is hazardous terrain which iirc is a game term? You've got the badge so of course your answer is final, but wanted to put that out there for feedback if there is any Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Calmdown Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 So "towards" doesn't actually mean towards, it means "move X inches along the path you would move to get into contact with target model if you had infinite movement"? And "directly towards" means what we all think towards means? None of that is intuitive unless there's a rulebook rule that shows this clearly, it's pretty much FAQ material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 So "towards" doesn't actually mean towards, it means "move X inches along the path you would move to get into contact with target model if you had infinite movement"? And "directly towards" means what we all think towards means? None of that is intuitive unless there's a rulebook rule that shows this clearly, it's pretty much FAQ material. There is such a rule, and a very clear graphic example of how it works too. Page 35. Even if you don't buy Rules Manual and use the PDF, it still cannot be put clearer (with separate section for movement toward/away and movement directly toward/away). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Calmdown Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 There is such a rule' date=' and a very clear graphic example of how it works too. Page 35. Even if you don't buy Rules Manual and use the PDF, it still cannot be put clearer (with separate section for movement toward/away and movement directly toward/away).[/quote'] Page 35 says nothing about elevations. It says that a model MAY move so as to avoid terrain, but not that it has to, and as when moving toward you are not allowed to end your move further away than you started, it must jump off the terrain as that's the only way it can get closer...right? In any case, defining anything that is elevated as terrain is not how the rulebook is written. Terrain can have the elevated trait, but that does not mean that automatically everything that is elevated is terrain, right? For example, let's take the new Streets of Malifaux board - it has large elevated areas all over the place. Does that mean that the elevated areas are 'terrain'? And if so, where do they start and end? And furthermore, does that mean that if you're standing in the middle of one of those flat, open areas that you are now defining as 'terrain' because they have elevations at their edges, that you can now claim that you cant move to forced movement because you want to 'avoid terrain' and the terrain is all around you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Page 35 says nothing about elevations. It says that a model MAY move so as to avoid terrain, but not that it has to, and as when moving toward you are not allowed to end your move further away than you started, it must jump off the terrain as that's the only way it can get closer...right? I was mostly addressing the claim that towards and directly towards are not precisely defined in the manual. However if you take a thorough look at the exact wording, things turn out to be very well defined, IMHO: If there is no way to get closer to the goal your model is supposed to move toward to then yes, it has to jump. But you must also consider that a lower position along the climbable surface may actually be closer to your goal than the starting position, even if it is not closer than falling down - then it can avoid falling. If it is directly toward, you obviously have no choice. In any case, defining anything that is elevated as terrain is not how the rulebook is written. Terrain can have the elevated trait, but that does not mean that automatically everything that is elevated is terrain, right? Not really. Of course there is a large wiggle room with Terrain rules and if you want to, you can change terrain's characteristic. However the rules for "Elevated" terrain define General Playing Area and everything which is higher than that (and models can stand on it), is Elevated by default. You can consider that the "default" state of the terrain, unless you and your opponent actually change that at the beginning of the game. Think about it that way - the manual doesn't tell you you can lay out terrain without giving it attributes. The manual merely tell you you and your opponent have to agree on these attributes. You still have to define them as you lay down the terrain and you can't place a hill without giving it proper attributes. If you choose to make it impassable or a forest, that is your choice, but I think the authors assume certain degree of reasonability here - if it is an elevation you can place a model on, it affects LoS and you should give it elevated characteristic for that reason alone. For example, let's take the new Streets of Malifaux board - it has large elevated areas all over the place. Does that mean that the elevated areas are 'terrain'? Yes. And the ramps leading to them are slopped terrain. And the ladders are Climbable terrain. Unless you specifically decide otherwise, but it may mess up quite a few things - for example LOS. And if so, where do they start and end? Every piece of terrain has a base. Rule specifying what is a base of a terrain piece is on page 58 - generally if the base is not visible, then you consider terrains footprint to be the base. A raised bridge, terrace or a balcony has a footprint, no doubt. And furthermore, does that mean that if you're standing in the middle of one of those flat, open areas that you are now defining as 'terrain' because they have elevations at their edges, that you can now claim that you cant move to forced movement because you want to 'avoid terrain' and the terrain is all around you? I think the nuance you are missing is that the rule specifies you MUST move. You only MAY avoid terrain, should such a chance present itself (i.e. if you can move while avoiding terrain and still end up closer to the goal). If you are in the middle of the terrain and can't avoid it, you still MUST move. Edited July 22, 2011 by Q'iq'el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 dgraz Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Another fine example of trying to exploit a loophole. That said, I would totally allow you to do it in a friendly game just because it's a hilarious visual.....but only if you paint your Peacekeeper black and white like a killer whale :elefant: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 tadaka Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Should be legal to toss a model up say a ladder as it could make the move normaly and then harpoon it off the edge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Bigkid Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I don't thinks it legal to, in any way, 'toss' a non-consensual opponent... (yep, the thread has reached that level) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Question
Turbodog
Okay, honestly, this idea is my preschool sons...not mine.
Peaeckeeper hits model and does 4 damage.
Peacekeeper chooses "toss" trigger.
Peacekeeper pushes model 4" - DIRECTLY UP!!!
Model proceeds to fall 4" and takes 2/4/6 damage flip from falling!
So what do people think about a Peacekeeper playing with his food?
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