Beating the Ortegas

[Annoch]

How do you do it with Neverborn?

Several people at our store have just started Malifaux, so it is worth noting that we are all new at this.

I decided to play Neverborn, and overall it has gone pretty well. I have played a lot of Lilith and Pandora, and have had some really good games against a variety of Masters. This exception to this is the Ortegas. They appear to have an answer for pretty much everything that everyone (not just Neverborn either).

They are rage inducing to play against. I don't expect to beat them everytime, but I would like to at least get close once or twice if possible. I generally never get past the third turn when playing against them. I know that they are anti-neverborn, but I dont think that that should mean that I can't even have a close but enjoyable game against them.

I fully accept that Pandora is not the master of choice here. I have thrown a variety of Lilith lists at them too, but to no avail. With little to no range in faction, I just cant bring enough to bear.

Particularly rage inducing is that not only are they a great gang, but being able to activate all at the same time means that at most I get three models going before they decimate me with their entire gang. Also, their range and mobility make it really difficult to deal with.

Maybe a different master? I think Zoriada might be ok (perhaps with a Pa Loco of her own). The dreamer looks plausible too, but since I still apparently haven't mastered the easy masters, he just gives me a headache. If he is the man though, then I will make up a flow chart or something and give him a shot.

This particular matchup is enough to make me want to put my stuff up on bartertown. I am the veteren of many game systems. Currently I also play 40K, Flames of War, and WarmaHordes. I am no slouch and regularly place or win at tournaments and have a solid record overall. But with this game, a guy that I beat pretty much everytime in the other games, grabs the Ortegas and in his first, second, and third games of Malifaux proceed to decimate me.

So, I decided that I must be an idiot and went a-researching. I found the pull my finger wiki, and went to the Ortega page, and basically found the advice for playing against Perdita to be 'Yeah, you are kinda screwed. I guess winning initiative and staying away from them is good?' Hmm, gosh I didn't think of that....

So what suggestions have you interwebs?

[osoi]

Not a Nevrborn player so take what I say with a pinch of salt. The Ortegas are strong but they are not unbeatable.

A Lilith list should do well, use Illusionary forest to provide some mobile terrain plus you also have the hooded rider who can be in Night (I think) so he can't be targetted by ranged strikes plus there is also Stitched Together with their creepy fog that provides LoS blockage too. Stitched can help a lot if you are using Pandora too.

You do not have to kill your opponent to win the game, take schemes that compliment your crew and focus on your strategy not the other crew.

Offing Perdita is incredibly difficult and sometimes its best just to ignore her. The rest of the crew is easy enough to take apart

[Q'iq'el]

So what suggestions have you interwebs?

First and foremost, since you are a new community, check if you have enough terrain.

Consider the Rules Manual recommends 18~36 terrain pieces on a single table and you'll immediately notice this game requires LOTS of terrain.

If you populate table well enough, you'll find yourself fighting in the narrow passages, clearings and perhaps some firing lanes, but the ranged crews will have to move a lot to get their angles. It's much easier to get close to them in such conditions.

[BigGreen]

A fast master always helps. In our circle the Neverborn players have had good results with Collodie and The hag against the Ortegas.

However there is another solution! Take Stitchd Together! With a four inch obscuring fog you can block the Ortegas shots! That way you can get into range with Pandora and Lilith. Try them out before you buy a whole new master.

[ispep]

I do not see how you are supposed to put that much terrain on a 3x3 board and be able to do anything. We usually have 8-12 pieces on the board and it is impossible to move where you want or shot who you want without spending 4 turns moving around other stuff. Might as well just play chess.

[BigGreen]

I do not see how you are supposed to put that much terrain on a 3x3 board and be able to do anything. We usually have 8-12 pieces on the board and it is impossible to move where you want or shot who you want without spending 4 turns moving around other stuff. Might as well just play chess.

Well on the flip side not having enough tarain in results in people getting tabbled by turn three. Have you looked at the Tara clips Wyrd is putting out? Los Bocking stuff everywhere! It dosent all have to be severe tarain that slows you down

[marshimartian]

So first, welcome to the boards.

Second, 36 pieces of terrain includes each little fence and shrubbery, doesn't have to be big, and for that matter, doesn't have to be impassable, think hills that can be walked over, but that still block los to the other side.

On to beating the Ortegas, remember that this is,a VP based game, so sometimes you just have to go for your objective and try your best to avoid them, if that won't work:

Pandora:

Don't use her if you can help it. If you wind up using her, take stitched for their fog and have plenty of woes in base contact for martyr. Lelu and Lilitu are great for this, especially in high point games where you can use Doppelganger to link them to Pandora. (copying (0)Link and Unhealthy Relationship and having Lelu and/or Lilitu in base contact with Pandora and Doppelganger.

Lilith

Best master to go toe to toe with Perdita. Use illusionary forest for cover, although Perdita herself ignores magic terrain, so you may still want a stitched. You'll want a full pol of soulstones and a bigger hand via primordial magic. Get Lilith into close combat and cheat and soulstone away.

Dreamer

Start with your nightmares in play so that you can out activate then. Stitched goes first for fog. Save Dreamer for last. More than likely, Perdita will head straight for him. That's when LCB comes out to play. Once again, cheat and soulstone away and hope for a few onslaught triggers.

Zoraida

Not suggested. If you must, keep Zoraida away from them. Obey Papua Loco like there's no tomorrow, use a voodoo doll to cast at him too, the poison will help deliver that one last explosion. Use a big beat stick like mature nephilim without immune to influence so you can use obey to get your extra hits in. Don't forget to magical extension obey with your doll.

Hope that helps

[Adanedhel]

If I may ad: if you need take Pandora, you could hire Hamelin ratcather (the merc version), he's got obey for papa, and I've killed more then one model with pipers lure ^^

[karn987]

I'd like to apologize for the entry on the Ortega's and playing against them. I'll see to it that it gets expanded when possible as all those sections should be detailed and should NEVER give you that impression.

As for playing against Perdita... I do need to echo that the first question is, how much terrain are you using? Most of the time when someone is having this much trouble against them, its that the terrain is far to sparse. Can you tell us how cluttered the board is etc? Even better if you can give a picture of the table.

To not bombard you to heavily all at once, I'll just keep it to a simple few questions right now and we can take it step by step if you wish. What are the lists you've tried against them? Post up the full lists you've used along with the Strategies and Schemes you ended up with/chose.

Pandora is actually one of the hardest masters in the game to fully master, I wouldn't worry about that. Heck this faction as a whole tends to have a steep learning curve and really only Lilith is straightforward and even she has a deep level of complexity most people don't realize right off. So starting off against your mortal enemies is a rough situation, I never recommend that parrying when both players are new. The Ortega's sorta Plattue out, their pretty easy to learn and don't have to change up how they play to much. While you will have to learn how to deal with their ranged power and Alpha strikes and honestly... it's always a bit of a hairy game. But it's far from one sided once you get it down, so don't throw them up on Bartertown man! Keep them and we'll get you armed and ready.

[Annoch]

I'd like to apologize for the entry on the Ortega's and playing against them. I'll see to it that it gets expanded when possible as all those sections should be detailed and should NEVER give you that impression.

As for playing against Perdita... I do need to echo that the first question is, how much terrain are you using? Most of the time when someone is having this much trouble against them, its that the terrain is far to sparse. Can you tell us how cluttered the board is etc? Even better if you can give a picture of the table.

To not bombard you to heavily all at once, I'll just keep it to a simple few questions right now and we can take it step by step if you wish. What are the lists you've tried against them? Post up the full lists you've used along with the Strategies and Schemes you ended up with/chose.

Pandora is actually one of the hardest masters in the game to fully master, I wouldn't worry about that. Heck this faction as a whole tends to have a steep learning curve and really only Lilith is straightforward and even she has a deep level of complexity most people don't realize right off. So starting off against your mortal enemies is a rough situation, I never recommend that parrying when both players are new. The Ortega's sorta Plattue out, their pretty easy to learn and don't have to change up how they play to much. While you will have to learn how to deal with their ranged power and Alpha strikes and honestly... it's always a bit of a hairy game. But it's far from one sided once you get it down, so don't throw them up on Bartertown man! Keep them and we'll get you armed and ready.

Thanks to everyone for their answers.

No worries about the wiki, overall everything there is very good. It wasn't a complaint so much as an observation that perhaps my first impression of the Ortegas wasn't far off.

I also know that perhaps it isn't a good matchup for beginners, but there are several people who got into the game because they really liked the look of that gang. I don't think it will work to tell them to buy a whole new gang, just because I chose Neverborn. On the other hand it means that I have to play against them all the bloody time, which is part of my problem.

It appears that perhaps we haven't been using enough terrain based on what everyone is saying. I went and looked at battle report forum for some with pictures and didn't find too many. the ones I did see generally had less terrain than what we are using. Perhaps more of it needs to be LOS blocking.

Does anyone here have a link to a pic that they would consider to be a good table? Based on that I could probably figure out what direction to head on terrain purchases. As I noted playing 40k, FOW, and Warmachine you generally need just enough terrain, so the amount that this game seems to call for seems pretty excessive.

For information, we are generally playing 25 and 35ss games on a 3x3 board. This seemed to be the size that the rules suggested. Should we go to a 4x4?

List wise, I have tried a variety of things including stitched together, forest cover, and waldgeists. My last list I think was Lilith, Terror Tot, Stitched, Waldgeist, Mature, 2x Young, with a 7SS cache.

I think we did shared reconnoiter. Corner deployment, and for schemes I took hold out and grudge.

I have also played treasure hunt, slaughter, and claim jump with them. I generally take the same strategies.

Luckily, mission doesn't seem to matter since I get wiped before it matters.

The plan was to activate the stitched defensive stance him, move him up a little and pop fog. Nino and the other guy ignore it, but killing a defensive stitched in one turn is basically impossible. Lilith would then create the forest, and the waldgeist would then move it around as necessary. I figured that with armor 2 it would also weather the storm.

Sadly, it all went as it normally does. Moved up first turn and got into position and try to spread out a little. Second turn he flips a 12 for init, so no point in SS'ing that. He companions everyone, double obeys Pa Loco into position, cheats either a 13 or a red joker (don't remember) and now most of my stuff is dead or half dead since in this game you can apparently be behind a 20 foot tall rock wall and you still get damaged when the old man explodes.

Also WTF DOESN'T THAT KILL HIM???? Sigh, the rest of his models went and I called it. I think that Nino even managed to pull off two headshots, just to add insult to injury.

It turns out that when you are playing on a 3' board there are only so many places you can go and a 6" pulse is gigantic. And that isin't even the only pulse they have available.

It would be nice if I could just hide my models, but that doesn't work since it most of the gang can ignore cover or LOS in some way.

Also, their damage output (generally all going at the same time mind you) is remarkable. Everyone has the ability to either take multiple free shots on triggers or to auto crit.

On the off chance that I do get my nephelim in there, they manage to kill off one target and then they get taken off the board. Very glass cannon.

Sorry if I sound like a whiner. Hell, maybe I am. It's just that I enjoy a nice close game, even if I lose. I know that I am not a horrible gamer, and I have had some success against several other masters.

[karn987]

Thanks to everyone for their answers.

No worries about the wiki, overall everything there is very good. It wasn't a complaint so much as an observation that perhaps my first impression of the Ortegas wasn't far off.

I also know that perhaps it isn't a good matchup for beginners, but there are several people who got into the game because they really liked the look of that gang. I don't think it will work to tell them to buy a whole new gang, just because I chose Neverborn. On the other hand it means that I have to play against them all the bloody time, which is part of my problem.

It appears that perhaps we haven't been using enough terrain based on what everyone is saying. I went and looked at battle report forum for some with pictures and didn't find too many. the ones I did see generally had less terrain than what we are using. Perhaps more of it needs to be LOS blocking.

Does anyone here have a link to a pic that they would consider to be a good table? Based on that I could probably figure out what direction to head on terrain purchases. As I noted playing 40k, FOW, and Warmachine you generally need just enough terrain, so the amount that this game seems to call for seems pretty excessive.

For information, we are generally playing 25 and 35ss games on a 3x3 board. This seemed to be the size that the rules suggested. Should we go to a 4x4?

List wise, I have tried a variety of things including stitched together, forest cover, and waldgeists. My last list I think was Lilith, Terror Tot, Stitched, Waldgeist, Mature, 2x Young, with a 7SS cache.

I think we did shared reconnoiter. Corner deployment, and for schemes I took hold out and grudge.

I have also played treasure hunt, slaughter, and claim jump with them. I generally take the same strategies.

Luckily, mission doesn't seem to matter since I get wiped before it matters.

The plan was to activate the stitched defensive stance him, move him up a little and pop fog. Nino and the other guy ignore it, but killing a defensive stitched in one turn is basically impossible. Lilith would then create the forest, and the waldgeist would then move it around as necessary. I figured that with armor 2 it would also weather the storm.

Sadly, it all went as it normally does. Moved up first turn and got into position and try to spread out a little. Second turn he flips a 12 for init, so no point in SS'ing that. He companions everyone, double obeys Pa Loco into position, cheats either a 13 or a red joker (don't remember) and now most of my stuff is dead or half dead since in this game you can apparently be behind a 20 foot tall rock wall and you still get damaged when the old man explodes.

Also WTF DOESN'T THAT KILL HIM???? Sigh, the rest of his models went and I called it. I think that Nino even managed to pull off two headshots, just to add insult to injury.

It turns out that when you are playing on a 3' board there are only so many places you can go and a 6" pulse is gigantic. And that isin't even the only pulse they have available.

It would be nice if I could just hide my models, but that doesn't work since it most of the gang can ignore cover or LOS in some way.

Also, their damage output (generally all going at the same time mind you) is remarkable. Everyone has the ability to either take multiple free shots on triggers or to auto crit.

On the off chance that I do get my nephelim in there, they manage to kill off one target and then they get taken off the board. Very glass cannon.

Sorry if I sound like a whiner. Hell, maybe I am. It's just that I enjoy a nice close game, even if I lose. I know that I am not a horrible gamer, and I have had some success against several other masters.

Sorry it took me a while to respond, buisy times.

For your board, you want to play on a 3x3' board, that is the board size for this game. You also want a very healthy mix of LOS blocking terrain and partially blocking terrain. Its not a bad idea to have 5 or 6+ good size blocking pieces of terrain (houses are a good one for this) and then a woods or two spread around.

I wish I had a pic of a board layout to show you what I mean. I'll see if I can snag one, but not likely. In the mean time, next time you play get a pic of your board and post it up.

Compared to WM/Hordes, you want easily double if not tripple the amount of terrain depending on the size of it etc.

FYI Hunter does nothing against the Stitched Togethers Fog. It is not terrain and if you look at the wording of Hunter carefully, it mentions Terrain. So Nino is hosed over by the fog!

I think I understand whats happening, over all you are letting yourself get jumped by them when you should be jumping them. Generally what you have to do is make good use of Terrain and don't let the other player try to short change you on the amount of terrain. You need a lot in this game and some players love to try and get/scam you out of it. Don't go overboard with it, but there shouldn't be many large open areas with nothing around to hide behind.

As Nephilim you are built to jump your opponent. The Ortega's can't see from one side of a forest t othe other so Illusionary Forest in the right place can easily cut of LOS and protect one of your models. If you do it in the right range, you can easily Diving Charge in and nail the model. As for the Papa Loco obey bs, well you gotta find a way to deal with it. It's very much a in the heat of the moment thing, but generally you can work out a Transposition on him or if you have Lilitu he is wicked easy to Lure. If you get a Mask, you can even use your trigger and do it again. Get him away from his crew and then easily pick him off.

Another important thing I'll mention quickly is threat saturation. When it comes time to jump a crew like the Ortegas you want to get all in and hit them as hard as you can. Don't trickle in, give them as many targets as you can and be willing to risk Lilith to keep her crew alive. If she dies and her crew lives, you should easily be able to finish them off from there if you've made it to melee. Plus Lilith can be incredibly hard to take down, so using her as bait works rather well, especially if you have SS left.

I'm not sure how most of the crew can ignore LOS... the Ortega's can't ignore LOS... so you should easily be able to hind behind things. Especially the Illusionary Forest which like all Obscuring Effects (terrain or not), you can't see from one side to the other even with Hunter. I think you may have been playing a few rules wrong from the sound of it. (which is easy enough to do, the game does have a millionish rules XD).

Also it seems to me that maybe your being a bit to aggressive and defensive at the same time. You seem to be building your list to try and avoid their shots but I'm also betting that when you get the chance to charge in your taking it right away. Hard to say without being there to see it happen. But we will get to that.

Going to wait for your reply and then we can get into the finer details of your crews.

Edited July 18, 2011 by karn987

[Adran]

Most of the Ortegas have a shooting range of 8-10", and most nephlim have a melee threat of more than that, so if he can shoot you, you can hit him, and most of the ortegas aren't as good in combat.

It can be worth trying to sprint a terror tot into melee with Papa to prevent him from escaping to explode.

The Alpha strike is tough, having models safe either out of range or in melee helps you here.

If you are planning on getting in a big fight, be prepared to get everything in. Threat overload will cause issues. Most of the ortegas will die to a couple of good hits. If the companion is the big problem, try and kill off the smaller members, or break his groups into two smaller ones.

If the ortegas are all pretty close to each other you should be able to avoid fairly easily and spread out to reduce the Papa damage.

Ideally pick off from the edge and keep whittleing.

The doppleganger with its negative flips to initative will help you get the first turn which can be very important against the ortegas.

[Wulfen]

Generally what you have to do is make good use of Terrain and DON'T let the ortega player try to short change you on the amount of terrain. You need a lot in this game and Ortega players love to try and scum you out of it.

Easy there. I could argue the same thing since you're a Neverborn player, and have quite obviously helped Neverborn be the super-powered faction that it is.

My point being, there is absolutely no reason to insult Guild/Ortega players as being 'scum' who all want a clean table to blaze away from, just like you don't want Neverborn to rule the table, right? Simply not the case.

To the OP: Trust me, I play Guild, and I have the same issues with Pandora , Lilith and the Dreamer that any other crew has. Perdita has tools to avoid some of what Pandora does, but the rest of her crew does not, and if you're out-activating them, it becomes a matter of time before WP flips start going through, and those Sorrows start pinging the Ortegas. I think the difference is that the Ortegas are much more straight-forward to play, and Pandora takes a bit of playing to get to that level.

We have a Pandora player locally, and it's just a beast to play against, no matter the crew, because he knows her and her crew inside-and-out.

It'll come man, Pandora is a really tough master to deal with. Stick with it if you like her and her playstyle.

[karn987]

Easy there. I could argue the same thing since you're a Neverborn player, and have quite obviously helped Neverborn be the super-powered faction that it is.

My point being, there is absolutely no reason to insult Guild/Ortega players as being 'scum' who all want a clean table to blaze away from, just like you don't want Neverborn to rule the table, right? Simply not the case.

*face palm* I'm sorry, that was completely my bad. I didn't mean "scum", I typed to fast and put that instead of "scam". Reading back over it, yes it honestly was to harsh and is not true, I appologize for that. I've corrected the post. :sadpuppet1

[Golden]

Wow. Thats all I can say is just, wow...

Usually I play Res'sers which tend to have the theme of "whatever we do, someone else does it better."

A friend of mine plays arcanists, and they're balancing theme seems to be "whatever we do, someone else does it cheaper."

The Outcasts get no love, and they truly are a faction divided.

The Guild is good at targeting weaknesses in other factions, but keep in mind, most Guild models are living, which is the most vulnerable descriptor in the game. Or you can play Hoffman so you don't deal with that, but he has his balancing factors as well, namely, POLIO!!!

The Neverborn, or as I call them the Neverlose, are the "broken" faction in the game because they have no apparent disadvantages. The number one disadvantage I have heard about, in the Neverborn, is "Most of their abilities don't work on other Neverborn crews." Well then its a fair fight, because most of the other crews abilities won't work on you either. Thats your downside? A fair matchup within faction? How terrible... No sympathy...

But it honestly saddens me to see that, out of faction, there is a Master and crew that gives your faction trouble, mainly because its meant to be as "broken" as the "broken" faction, and the predominant answer to this is- clutter the table with Bulls**t.

Dealing with it in-game with a (0) act from Stitched Together isn't good enough. Clutter the table with Bulls**t.

Oh, and watch out for those Oretga players, they'll scam you. They will use their cunning, game min/maxing, love of gun-shooting brains, to jip you out of your precious, life-saving terrain, which you could use like a life-preserver to clutter the table.

Seriously, deal with it, just deal with it. There is one, (I will repeat that for effect a few times) ONE, 1, UNO!, master in the game that causes your faction to actually face a disadvantage walking into a matchup. Oh cry me a river, and welcome to the rest of Malifaux.

[karn987]

Wow. Thats all I can say is just, wow...

Usually I play Res'sers which tend to have the theme of "whatever we do, someone else does it better."

A friend of mine plays arcanists, and they're balancing theme seems to be "whatever we do, someone else does it cheaper."

The Outcasts get no love, and they truly are a faction divided.

The Guild is good at targeting weaknesses in other factions, but keep in mind, most Guild models are living, which is the most vulnerable descriptor in the game. Or you can play Hoffman so you don't deal with that, but he has his balancing factors as well, namely, POLIO!!!

The Neverborn, or as I call them the Neverlose, are the "broken" faction in the game because they have no apparent disadvantages. The number one disadvantage I have heard about, in the Neverborn, is "Most of their abilities don't work on other Neverborn crews." Well then its a fair fight, because most of the other crews abilities won't work on you either. Thats your downside? A fair matchup within faction? How terrible... No sympathy...

But it honestly saddens me to see that, out of faction, there is a Master and crew that gives your faction trouble, mainly because its meant to be as "broken" as the "broken" faction, and the predominant answer to this is- clutter the table with Bulls**t.

Dealing with it in-game with a (0) act from Stitched Together isn't good enough. Clutter the table with Bulls**t.

Oh, and watch out for those Oretga players, they'll scam you. They will use their cunning, game min/maxing, love of gun-shooting brains, to jip you out of your precious, life-saving terrain, which you could use like a life-preserver to clutter the table.

Seriously, deal with it, just deal with it. There is one, (I will repeat that for effect a few times) ONE, 1, UNO!, master in the game that causes your faction to actually face a disadvantage walking into a matchup. Oh cry me a river, and welcome to the rest of Malifaux.

Seriously?

Come on man. This is a thread about helping a player get used to dealing with a tough opponent. Your opinions are yours, but this is not the place for this man. If you want to rant about your dislike for one faction, make a thread for it and don't spoil other threads with it.

[Golden]

I can respect the nature of your request, but I will not apologize. I was attempting to illustrate lack of balance between the Neverborn and the other factions with a blend of humor and sarcasm, with an underlying goal of venting some frustration.

I played Perdita for the first time last night and won't be playing her again unless I am in a competition. I enjoy winning, but I would prefer the other player has a good time as well. Sadly, the Neverborn players I have played against don't seem to have the same opinion. I will be keeping Perdita in reserve for them. I can understand if you feel like she is an "unbeatable" master, I was attempting to point out that she is a response to an "unbeatable" faction. It was my backhanded way of saying, don't be discouraged by an unfair match against one master when the rest of the game has an unfair match against an entire faction.

You may feel like I have loosed my venom inappropriately, but I disagree. That being said, I will refrain from further posts on this thread.

[harbinger]

Seriously?

Come on man. This is a thread about helping a player get used to dealing with a tough opponent. Your opinions are yours, but this is not the place for this man. If you want to rant about your dislike for one faction, make a thread for it and don't spoil other threads with it.

I would like to thank you Karn, you probably just unknowingly saved me from a chewing. As I read the post in question, the reply that was forming in my head.. well lets just saying it wasnt as calmly stated.

[harbinger]

I played Perdita for the first time last night and won't be playing her again unless I am in a competition. I enjoy winning, but I would prefer the other player has a good time as well. Sadly, the Neverborn players I have played against don't seem to have the same opinion. I will be keeping Perdita in reserve for them. I can understand if you feel like she is an "unbeatable" master, I was attempting to point out that she is a response to an "unbeatable" faction. It was my backhanded way of saying, don't be discouraged by an unfair match against one master when the rest of the game has an unfair match against an entire faction.

As has been said many times.. everyone is entitled to an opinion. But this seems to be going beyond that and into a unjustified vendetta.

Yeah Pandy babe can be a pain to play against. So can Perdita; first time I played Collette I definatly had a "WTF!" moment; everyone loves to hate Hamelin; getting the smirked wiped off my face for "killing" 6 zombies in one turn with blast markers only to have a ressurectionist raise them again is a serious irritant.

Maybe I need glasses but way Im seeing the situation, all factions have their tricks. Hell Im a raspy player.. constantly I get ribbed about how shes the cheesy master.. yet shes not even considered so called "competitive" by most.

[Dolomyte]

anyone who thinks rasputina is not competetive is playing against someone using her wrong.

Perdita is beatable, but the papa bomb is annoying as hell. I love matching my papa bomb zoraida list against a perdita papa bomb, because then I get ot make his papa loco explode in his force, and then MY papa loco explode in his force.

Also, as neverborn, getting into melee with perdita ruins her armies day, adn we usually have stuff fast enough to do so.

[Natty]

In my experience, Perdita is by no means unbeatable with Pandora. The big problem is that I tend to use Pandora like a giant mallet and love putting her in the front line (as opposed to Karn's strategies that use her like a scalpel). If you fight Perdita or Lady Justice, you just can't use Pandora like a big hammer. The key I've found is to use her speed to hop in, do some damage, and then hop away. Always save enough cards to get away because if you get stuck out there... that's one dead Pandora.

I actually have liked to play defensively against Perdita in the few games I've played against her. Take your time, exploit Pandora's speed, take out Papa, harass Perdita, then, when the time is right, move in for the kill.

[nilus]

It also should be repeated.

You don't win the game by killing other models. When going against Perdita set your Strategies and Schemes appropriately. Don't bank on assassinate or something like that.

[Natty]

It also should be repeated.

You don't win the game by killing other models. When going against Perdita set your Strategies and Schemes appropriately. Don't bank on assassinate or something like that.

Agree. Repeat that like 10 times.

It is especially crappy for Pandora since taking Bodyguard is almost a given unless you are up against the guild. Bodyguard on Pandora is either 2 free points, or, even better, your opponent putting all his resources into killing Pandora, which is basically the best you can hope for because then your minions have free reign to do whatever they feel like. (Not to mention that I've played games where people put all their resources into killing Pandora and still can't manage it.)

[ispep]

Wow. Thats all I can say is just, wow...

Usually I play Res'sers which tend to have the theme of "whatever we do, someone else does it better."

A friend of mine plays arcanists, and they're balancing theme seems to be "whatever we do, someone else does it cheaper."

The Outcasts get no love, and they truly are a faction divided.

The Guild is good at targeting weaknesses in other factions, but keep in mind, most Guild models are living, which is the most vulnerable descriptor in the game. Or you can play Hoffman so you don't deal with that, but he has his balancing factors as well, namely, POLIO!!!

The Neverborn, or as I call them the Neverlose, are the "broken" faction in the game because they have no apparent disadvantages. The number one disadvantage I have heard about, in the Neverborn, is "Most of their abilities don't work on other Neverborn crews." Well then its a fair fight, because most of the other crews abilities won't work on you either. Thats your downside? A fair matchup within faction? How terrible... No sympathy...

But it honestly saddens me to see that, out of faction, there is a Master and crew that gives your faction trouble, mainly because its meant to be as "broken" as the "broken" faction, and the predominant answer to this is- clutter the table with Bulls**t.

Dealing with it in-game with a (0) act from Stitched Together isn't good enough. Clutter the table with Bulls**t.

Oh, and watch out for those Oretga players, they'll scam you. They will use their cunning, game min/maxing, love of gun-shooting brains, to jip you out of your precious, life-saving terrain, which you could use like a life-preserver to clutter the table.

Seriously, deal with it, just deal with it. There is one, (I will repeat that for effect a few times) ONE, 1, UNO!, master in the game that causes your faction to actually face a disadvantage walking into a matchup. Oh cry me a river, and welcome to the rest of Malifaux.

LOL. You must be a warlock, your tears are delicious. QQ moar.

[mpangelu]

Hello, this post sure has gone up and down a lot. The guy who went off, you have a very valid point. And karn, you did imply that guild players or perdita players, even if not scum, scam... implying that they are using underhanded techniques to gain a further advantage.

I play both. Perdita (well all of guild actually) and Have started up in the Neverborn both with Dreamer and Collodi. And planning on getting all of the neverborn.

Tonight, my buddy and I stopped by a game store at this city we are staying at for a week, and while playing a game of his Dreamer vs my Collodi, a guy walks up and goes, oh who is playing what.. And we say that, he goes ok, looks at me and goes so your playing the rush your face first turn guy, and he looked at my buddy and said and your playing the douschebag list.

Now while I do believe the Dreamer crew has a strong advantage over a lot of other crews, I don't believe it has warranted that. Nor do I believe Perdita and her Ortegas has warranted what your's or anyone's ire.

Perdita is a beast, her family is strong.. but they aren't by any stretch of the means invincible. Most of the family members are def 4. The biggest advantage most neverborn have are speed. In perdita, she is the only fast one. SO she will either need to go slow, or get solo'd out.

All in all, it is all situational and all advice given on this thread (even in harsher moments) has been given with good intent and all has had some if not most/all truth in it. But in the end, it is all to subjective. Every game won't be the same, the strategies won't be the same, the schemes won't be the same. Neverborn are not the greatest to learn with. But when you do learn them, they are fun and open up very interesting and fun tweaks about them.

To the OP: If you are going to let your downturns of these games get to you, then have at it with bartertown imo. My friends and I have been in love with Malifaux for over the past year now, simply because it is never the same. If you can, please take what others have said and try to keep their advice close to you. Papa Loco btw, is a one trick pony to me. I don't like to use him because he usually gets used against me. I hope you are able to defeat them, and it may be that some of the things your opponent is doing isn't right. The part where ortegas ignore LOS is not true. Nino is the only one with hunter even if that is what your referring to. I might be rambling at this point and if I am I apologize, I've had quite a long day. Good luck on your endeavors Malifaux or otherwise