First Timer Question: Lady Justice as a Master

[SpectralTime]

So, I'm thinking about starting Malifaux. I've played a decent amount of Warmahordes and Warhammer, as Cygnar in the first and the Tau in the second. For those who play neither, both are heavily range dependent factions. Both are also the closest to "good guys" in the morally ambiguous world of tabletop wargaming, and while I don't know much about Malifaux's fluff, I've read enough to know that the Guild are a decent, if not nice, bunch of people with some genuinely moral folks working for them and some truly evil people in charge.

For starting out Malifaux, I decided I'd try something different, and pick up a melee monster. I hit on Lady Justice, both because, near as I can make out, she's a hero of justice trying to do the right thing in a rotten world, and also because she's a blind samurai cowboy and that's awesome.

However, I had a talk with some of my friends at the friendly neighborhood game shop tonight who actually play the game. Neither is terribly fond of the Guild (I know one has Hoffmann and Criid, two of the other Masters I was thinking about, but he prefers Neverborn) so neither has actually played as her, however, both are experienced players whose word I trust. The gist of their arguments is that, while potent under the right circumstances, she suffers from several major flaws:

a) She's extremely straightforward, and is thus ridiculously easy to counter for anyone who has even the slightest inkling what they're doing.

She's easily beaten by others when getting the short end of the stick in great game of Rock, Paper, Scissors that is Malifaux, even more so than is usual.

c) She's a one-trick pony, without any ways to work around her flaws, via either models or clever play.

Now, I don't know the game at all, and I only bought the cheap (comparatively, anyway) $15 dollar rules manual tonight, so I'd like to ask the board: to what degree are they right?

Edited June 16, 2011 by SpectralTime
clarification of thought

[Caleb]

One of the best part in LadyJ is that you can choose any Guild model to support her. So she's not a "one trick pony". If you can maneuver her on the table between obstackles and cover, you can easily one-hit and kill a lot of the masters. I almost did it twice on McM (11 Dg both times ). So you can play her tactically, just learn when to activate her. She's easy to learn but hard to master, just like the others.

[Fenrir]

It does really depend on what other models you use in the crew. Shes not bad in herself, but right tools for right job is essential with her.

[Adran]

a) She's extremely straightforward, and is thus ridiculously easy to counter for anyone who has even the slightest inkling what they're doing.

She's easily beaten by others when getting the short end of the stick in great game of Rock, Paper, Scissors that is Malifaux, even more so than is usual.

c) She's a one-trick pony, without any ways to work around her flaws, via either models or clever play.

a Disagree. Whilst she is relativcely straight forward, its not an easy counter. One of the hardest crews in the local metagame is a Justice crew. It makes good use of all the minions in the guild, and is very hard to counter, as its so good at what it does, which is damage everything it can.

Sure, she wants to get in combat with things, but thats not the only thing she does

b There are some crews that give her a very hard time, but not many, and in every case I think a good choice of minions will reduce this

c She can take everything that Sonia or Perdita can.

The only real weakness I can think of for her is her inability to give her crew movement tricks, but she can have most of the great shooters in her crew so she doesn't need to move

She can also take Lucius who does have this.

All in all she is fine. The guild has the capability to handle any mission against any master just with its minions, so the master you pick to lead them doesn't completly dictate your game.

[nerdelemental]

I'd actually agree that she is pretty straightforward. As much as this game can allow which means that she's less straightforward than anything you'd find in WH or Warmahordes.

To make the closest comparison, I'd think of Lady J as most akin to the Butcher from Warmachine.

She's going to go straight at the conflict. If your oponent sees her coming he had better figure out how to survive it and that's usually by running away. So you can use her like a hunting dog in the real world: flush out the prey and make them move where you want them to go = board control. So even if it seems like she's not doing anything, she often controls the board simply by being on it. Then you can use her not as a meat cleaver (which is always the most fun with her), but as a strategy and scheme master (essential components of the game).

[SpectralTime]

Those three points were me boiling down what I was told, not them actually putting out those points. Again, I don't know enough about the game to clarify too very well, but the description my friends gave me was this:

You always know what Lady Justice is going to do: charge you. So, to counter that, make sure she can't draw line of sight to anyone by putting anyone she could hurt behind at least 3'' of cover. Furthermore, she is best against certain kinds of enemy, namely, those who stockpile counters to make things, and her effectiveness rapidly decreases against others.

Now, both of them favor Neverborn and the trickier Arcanists and Ressurectionists, so I can't say with any certainty whether that colors their thinking, but that's the description I was given. I understand the "board control" bit, though I'm not sure I'm smart enough to pull it off.

Finally, with regard to her crew, I was kinda hoping to stick with a boxed set for a while.

[Adran]

She doesn't actually need line of sight to charge, she is a blind cowboy ninja afterall.

So all she needs to do is travel a straight line of up to 8 inches and get within 2 to hit, even if they are in the middle of cover, or behind a building.

Yes, the most common place is for her right in the middle of the fight. But thats not the only place, she does well giving out melee expert on multiple people, or removing certain defenses.

She is fairly quick to pick up the basics, but there are plenty of further options with her. And the crew choice you have with her will make a huge difference to what she is doing, or how your opponent has to react to her.

[nix]

As nearly everyone has said in this thread, Justice is a fantastic Melee master. She has the potential to put out the strongest single hit in the game (15 points) and consistently hits at the top end of damage in the game. Add into that her defensive trigger, and a lot of folk are very nervous about attacking her in melee.

As for her box set, the Death Marshals (Marshals and Judge) work very well with her. Death Marshals are incredibly resilient and can act as mini-tar-pits for other crews, allowing Justice to get into hitting range. There are also some tricks they can do to deliver Justice directly into combat if thats what you want to do.

Basically I am saying she is a solid master to start the game with, and her starter box gives you a solid crew to begin playing with. Can she be countered, sure she can. Everything in Malifaux can be countered. You will learn a lot about positioning while playing a Justice/Death Marshal crew, along with watching your opponents hide behind impassable terrain to keep away from her. She is very good at controlling the board, especially where you opponents do not have a lot of ranged attacks.

I would suggest picking up 2 starter boxes for the best start as the guild however. The Justice box works even better when you add the Sonnia Criid Witch Hunters box to it. Mixing the models from those two boxes provides a lot of flexibility, and allows you more options. They also has great synergies, as Sam can swap with Judge for a harder hitting range character, and the Stalkers can swap out 1 for 1 with Death Marshals. The mixed crew can be a lot of fun to run!

[Tim81]

Finally, with regard to her crew, I was kinda hoping to stick with a boxed set for a while.

[Hansel]

The only problem with her box is that it only comes to 19ss. Lady J has a cache of 4, and you can only take 8 in a scrap, so you can essentially only play a 23ss game or less. 25ss is the most common "low point" game, though. Get the box and an Austringer, and you're all set.

[Fenrir]

She doesn't actually need line of sight to charge, she is a blind cowboy ninja afterall.

So all she needs to do is travel a straight line of up to 8 inches and get within 2 to hit, even if they are in the middle of cover, or behind a building.

I thought that, but it's apparently wrong. Have a look here:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21229

She can charge without LoS, but not strike. I know - makes the ability a bit pointless, but there you go.

See Poulpox, I'm not the only one who thought it worked that way!

Edited June 17, 2011 by Fenrir

[Hansel]

She can charge without LoS, but not strike. I know - makes the ability a bit pointless, but there you go.

Not pointless a'tall. It just means she can't strike through a wall or whatever--and fiction-wise, would you expect her to?

It does mean that she doesn't need LoS to declare a Charge, which means she can Charge around walls, or through forests, or whatever--as long as she can see (ha!) them when she's about to hit them. It means she has a 10" threat range on a Charge, no matter where her opponents are, as long as she can get LoS after the Charge--which is almost always, in my experience.

[BrooklynMike]

The only problem with her box is that it only comes to 19ss. Lady J has a cache of 4, and you can only take 8 in a scrap, so you can essentially only play a 23ss game or less. 25ss is the most common "low point" game, though. Get the box and an Austringer, and you're all set.

As a new player who jumped right in with Lady Justice box set I really appreciate the views above. After about a dozen games with her I'm JUST starting to get the idea of how to manage the interplay between her, the Death Marshals, etc.

For the 19SS problem, get a totem. Scales of Justice is VERY cool. allowing you to refresh a card in your hand each activation. Also, her Totem being able to cast the spell that gives up to 2 models Melee Expert (forget the name) is awesome.

Let me also make a pitch for putting the Executioner in a crew. Like Lady Justice, when opponents see him coming they generally flee or hide ... since he Loves This Job, all he needs to do is get buffed up to Melee Expert (by Scales as above, or Lady Justice), lumber up to an enemy and kill it ... poof, all wounds healed as he revels in his handywork.

All in all, I"m really enjoying playing Lady Justice as Master, though I admit to being very impressed with Perdita and her crew.

Have fun!

[Scurry]

Also, her Totem being able to cast the spell that gives up to 2 models Melee Expert (forget the name) is awesome.

if u mean combat prowess it auto gives 2 models melee expert the if u flip/cheat a ram it gives a 3rd

[mylastnerv]

So much fun to give a Guardian . . . more shield bashing goodness when needed. Extra sword swipes are nice as well.

[Vinncent]

[beginer in Malifaux World]

hi,

what You think about this crew:

L. J box set

Convict Gunslinger

Hans.

(and i have Executioner too.)