Investing in Brushes

[ThePandaDirector]

Hello

I have been searching for a quality set of brushes, mostly in the small scale, and became quite smitten with the Winsor and Newton Series 7 Kolinsky Sable range. However, at £8.35 - at the cheapest - and a finacially impossible - for me that is - £182.90 for the largest, I am wondering if they are worth the investment. I treat painting seriously (as seriously as you take something you do for pleasure) and would undoubtedly appreciate a set of brushes which have the point, spring and flow that I desire, but would the experienced painters here agree that the better the tools, the smoother the experience or would you argue that the same quality can be reached by far cheaper brushes (skill over the tools). I accept that the truth lies between the two (the right tools in the hands of the right painter), but I simply wonder if this little indulgance would pay off or prove a merely waste of money.

Also, beyond GW paints, is there any range of paints that give a distinctive difference in options for tone, colour, etc.

Thanks for any input, I won't be rushing out to buy anything currently, but a big pay day is coming and I've got a pile of models on my shelf and too little paint and no brushes.

[LoboStele]

I found myself very comfortable paying around $5 for a brush anymore, and I'm sure if I actually tried a $10 one, I'd probably get addicted to that as well.

I always wait till the local hobby stores have a sale or a coupon for 40-50% off though.

[Bleys_Bariman]

I sat at the feet of a Golden Daemon winner about 10 years ago. I took his advice and rolled with it and my painting has plateaued but I am happy with my results.

Windsor and Newton brushes are expensive. but. If you take good care of the brushes, they will last a long, long time. There are acrylic paint cleaning solutions. get a bottle of that. Run your brush under lukewarm water. If the water is too hot it will make the wax (that holds the bristles together) melt, causing the bristles to fray. Dip the whole of the brush bristles in the cleaning solution then run thoroughly with the lukewarm water coming from the faucet. That said, the one brush or type of brush that I don't spend a lot of money on is dry brushes. They get thrashed anyway, just make sure they have a nice stiff bristle, like GW's.

As for paints, I use Vallejo paints for everything but metallics. Vallejo paints are cheaper, just as good if not better than GW, and it comes in eyedropper bottles so getting exact ratios is much easier. GW's metallics still have the highest flake concentrations. For inks, I use either Vallejo or Windsor & Newton. Hope this helps.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Bleys_Bariman

[ThePandaDirector]

I found myself very comfortable paying around $5 for a brush anymore, and I'm sure if I actually tried a $10 one, I'd probably get addicted to that as well.

I always wait till the local hobby stores have a sale or a coupon for 40-50% off though.

Yeah, smart move.

I think if you are shelling out for your tools, you tend to not only take more care of them (in just looking for upgrades on GW brushes I've found out more than I knew about brush care), but also become more organised and disciplined in your work flow. They won't make a bad painter any better, but you'll more than likely appreciate them more because of the cost as well as quality. But then that's all very psychological and I'm more interested in seeing if such a brush range is worth indulging in, for its quality.

[MTox]

I just received the Raphael 8404 2, 1, and 0 and I have to say that they really blow the other brushes I've used out of the water. I'm still getting used to them, but the amount of control that I have has really given my painting a leg up.

I ordered them from ASWexpress and their customer service was awesome. My 0 arrived with no bristle guard so it was a little splayed. I wrote to them and within 2 hours another replacement was on its way. Prices seemed pretty reasonable too.

[EricJ]

Finding and investing a good brush definitely pays off for many reasons, both in your painting enjoyment, results and even in cost.

I'll start with cost. I started painting with lower price brushes with synthetic bristles, and did just fine with them at first. However, the synthetic materials will always age quite poorly even with perfect brush maintenance. They get bent, hooked, or split tips rather quickly. I found I would use the brush despite these conditions as long as possible, making my painting more and more frustrating and difficult, and requiring more work for worse results, until I gave in, and got a new brush.

When you invest in a high quality brush with real hair, you pretty much can completely avoid these issues if you take proper care of the brush, don't abuse it when painting, or when transporting/storing it, don't let paint dry on it, etc... In fact I've had the same series 7 brush for 3-4 years. They can lose bristles and thin out a bit, which is why I actually own quite a few brushes of different ages, because the characteristics of the brush change to become better or worse at achieving certain results.

Doing the math though, I have 4 series 7's of different ages which I use regularly, but haven't had to replace for over 4 years. Compared to brushes 1/3 the cost which I would have to replace every month or two. Doing the math, if you take care of your expensive brushes, you'll end up spending less.

The results speak for themselves, which also relates to the experience of painting. Simply it removes the frustration that cheap brushes often cause, which makes painting more fun, results better, and gets you painting more!

The biggest issue is that brushes do all have different characteristics, and while I love one type of brush, you may hate it and it may not work for you. I spent money on several different types of high quality brushes, just to see them go unused as I settled on one I liked the best. And quite frankly, the most expensive brush I bought I HATED, and simply couldn't paint with.

I now use Series 7 miniature brushes, which are made the same as regular series 7's, but with shorter hair, so the brush is overall stiffer and holds less paint. This fits my style perfectly and I never use anything else.

So yes, I recommend good brushes to any serious painter. I would only discourage them for those painters who either won't take care of their brush, or don't know how to, because with poor care, you'll have to replace them just as quickly as the cheap ones.

As for paints, I do think that P3's do a great job, I like the quality of the paint, as well as the results, which is to be expected considering they were created by Mike McVey. There are some colors in the range which aren't so useful unless you're trying to match the studios colors for the PP range of minis, but there are also a ton of generally useful colors there. I've used both them and GW and like the result of both, but it's good to mix it up, since their colors do vary, which provides a different feel to you minis.

[TheOneWhoFell]

Hello

I have been searching for a quality set of brushes, mostly in the small scale, and became quite smitten with the Winsor and Newton Series 7 Kolinsky Sable range. However, at £8.35 - at the cheapest - and a finacially impossible - for me that is - £182.90 for the largest, I am wondering if they are worth the investment. I treat painting seriously (as seriously as you take something you do for pleasure) and would undoubtedly appreciate a set of brushes which have the point, spring and flow that I desire, but would the experienced painters here agree that the better the tools, the smoother the experience or would you argue that the same quality can be reached by far cheaper brushes (skill over the tools). I accept that the truth lies between the two (the right tools in the hands of the right painter), but I simply wonder if this little indulgance would pay off or prove a merely waste of money.

Also, beyond GW paints, is there any range of paints that give a distinctive difference in options for tone, colour, etc.

Thanks for any input, I won't be rushing out to buy anything currently, but a big pay day is coming and I've got a pile of models on my shelf and too little paint and no brushes.

I really like the $10 packs at AC Moore... They aren't high quality... in fact they are best if replaced after about 3-4 (consecutive) months of painting. But they work beautifully. I know this kind of defeats buying nice brushes, but arguably you'd have to replace them eventually any way...

[EricJ]

I just received the Raphael 8404 2, 1, and 0 and I have to say that they really blow the other brushes I've used out of the water. I'm still getting used to them, but the amount of control that I have has really given my painting a leg up.

I ordered them from ASWexpress and their customer service was awesome. My 0 arrived with no bristle guard so it was a little splayed. I wrote to them and within 2 hours another replacement was on its way. Prices seemed pretty reasonable too.

In terms of pure brush quality, these brushes rank near or at the top, they just didn't have the same characteristics I like in the series 7 miniatures. The problem now days with series 7's is that they aren't all of top quality, and I have had to return or toss out several brushes over the years which simply were not well made.

I get all my brushes through Dick Blick

Another thing which keeps down price is that I only use one size brushes, and it's all you really need when you have a good brush, because good brushes keep a fine tip when well maintained, so you really never need 0, 00, 000's etc... I use a 1 for everything...well, and a GW crappy drybrush for basecoating large areas

[ThePandaDirector]

Thanks a lot, the discussion here has given me a lot of ideas. I don't think I've heard of the Raphael range. I think I'll invest in a few from both the Series 7 miniature and Raphael to see which I prefer. I don't hold brushes, or even pens like normal people or so I've been told so we'll see. I definitely like short brushes and getting close to what I'm working on.

Yeah GW brushes are good for "hard labour" but when you work out the cost of replacing your key brushes it not costs more but it's definitely more frustating (and that is the exact opposite of what I paint for). I'll also invest in some quality cleaning kit and be sure to store and generally maintain my brushes as well as my models, and myself .

I think I'll also try some P3's and Vallejo, both sound like they have some qualities I'm looking for.

Hopefully I'll finally get some painting done in the next month and can get pics posted up for you all to hurl abuse at

EDIT: The website I was looking at the Raphael range has a sale on on. Hope it lasts

[ghostwalker]

I cant speak for my own experiences, as i own a set of W&N series 7's from size 1-000 but have never used them (terrified of killing them).

However 3 years ago i bought a good friend a set for xmas and he has been using them relentlessly for the whole time. Now he isnt the kindest painter (paints from the pot, cleans the brush in his mouth blah blah) but the brushes have held up wel, both in terms of point and fraying.

I think that in itself speaks volumes for these brushes.

A thought when considering other brushes too. False economy...how so. Well if you go through say 1 set of 4 brushes a year (thats being generous in most cases) then in the space of 3 years you will have covered the cost of one set of the series 7's and those 7's would have faithfully served you the whole time.

Mental note (maybe i should take my own advice and unwrap my 7's lol)

[ThePandaDirector]

@Ghostwalker: Can I ask what paints the two of you use? I'm currently most inclined to give Vallejo a good try as they seem to have a nice range, but I'll dip my toe before I dive.

Definitely going to get some Series 7's, hopefully they'll work out with my style. I imagine they will as long as they (I) can maintain their quality.

[EricJ]

Lots of people love Vallejo, but honestly they're one of my least favorite paints. I found their pigment felt a bit larger, so when you thin the paint down a ton, it starts to feel grainy. Granted I only really tried them about 5 years back, but I ended up giving away a whole set of them since I simply could not use them to get the results I wanted. I tend to paint with very thin layers and slowy build up highlights and shadows, so when those layers go on unevenly, it makes it near impossible to get smooth results.

I do think people find they work great for wet blending...I just don't paint that way.

[ghostwalker]

@Ghostwalker: Can I ask what paints the two of you use? I'm currently most inclined to give Vallejo a good try as they seem to have a nice range, but I'll dip my toe before I dive.

Definitely going to get some Series 7's, hopefully they'll work out with my style. I imagine they will as long as they (I) can maintain their quality.

Its really horses for courses on paints. I use a mix of GW paints and vallerjo paints. I find gw great for a lot of the things i paint. But if you want a realistic tone then vallerjo are a solid choice. With both the game colour and model colour range you can find anything you really want. Just keep the simple steps of watering your paint down and aplying thin coats, along with keeping the paint out of the ferrule of the brush and you should be fine.

The models i currently have posted on here are all done with gw paints but thats down to my vallerjo range being for Flames of war models and thus more 'military' colouring.

[ThePandaDirector]

Lots of people love Vallejo, but honestly they're one of my least favorite paints. I found their pigment felt a bit larger, so when you thin the paint down a ton, it starts to feel grainy. Granted I only really tried them about 5 years back, but I ended up giving away a whole set of them since I simply could not use them to get the results I wanted. I tend to paint with very thin layers and slowy build up highlights and shadows, so when those layers go on unevenly, it makes it near impossible to get smooth results.

I do think people find they work great for wet blending...I just don't paint that way.

I see... and would probably agree with your viewpoint. I also prefer thin layers and smooth blends. I might get a few for some wet blend tests on my plague ridden Skaven, but will likely skip them for Malifaux where I'll stick with layer blending. Also, since you pointed me towards P3's, would you say their mixing agent helps considerably when building washes (which I often do)?

[EricJ]

Mind you, I have no idea if vallejo has changed in the years since I tried it, lol

As for P3, their colors do restrict you a bit, but combined with GW, which I mix and match with, you can get around any troubles. I find both work quite well for thinning. P3 might have slightly finer pigment and slightly more pigment than the standard GW range. I haven't used GW foundations yet, but I hear they're packed with pigment, so may have more than P3.

[ghostwalker]

On the topic of GW's foundation range and indeed their new 'wash' range. I really cant sing their praises enough. I have always struggled with colours like red in the past and the 'mechrite red' paint went over a black undercoat in 2 thin layers. They are a more 'earthy' natural colour and work well.

[Ciaran]

When you say thin layers, are you referring to building the pigment in an area up over time? I'm just starting to learn about this, and am always itching to read more!

[ghostwalker]

Myself when im talking about thin layers. I usually thin the paint to about the consistency of milk (about 50/50 mix of paint to water). I then paint this on one coat at a time until i get the paint to the desired level. I use the same technique in shading/highlighting. Building the colour up in multipl thin coats. Its more time consuming but i find it gives a nice smooth result.

[LoboStele]

Myself when im talking about thin layers. I usually thin the paint to about the consistency of milk (about 50/50 mix of paint to water). I then paint this on one coat at a time until i get the paint to the desired level. I use the same technique in shading/highlighting. Building the colour up in multipl thin coats. Its more time consuming but i find it gives a nice smooth result.

I've been trying this a bit lately, but I find that the paint tends to pool up in the low areas of the model. Typically, those same low areas are where I've already inked the model with a black wash, and would like those areas to be darker on the finished piece. But the way the top coat pools down into there, I end up getting a thicker paint coat in the low areas, and a thin coat on the high spots.

Am I thinning it too much?

[ghostwalker]

At a guess i would say either too thin or too much paint on the brush. I try not to load too much onto the brush in one go. The other thing that can be a PitA is the ink not having dried properly. It can in recesses take forever to get to a stage where you can pain over it.

[EricJ]

the problem is that you have too much paint in the brush, you can't really thin too much. Sometimes I'll thin the point that it each time I go over an area, you can't even tell anything has changed, but after 8-10 layers, it starts to show. To use the technique, you need to thin the paint, then run the brush over your palate until the bristles are wet, but hardly any paint is actually stored in the brush. If you get any pooling on the miniature at all, you have too much in the brush.

I find it much much harder to do this when it's hot and dry out, as it will tend to dry out your brush before you get it to the mini sometimes. One year, a couple years back, it was particularly hot/dry for several weeks, and I had to get out a humidifier to keep the air moist just so I could paint anything!

[ThePandaDirector]

I've looked into the foundation paints and heard a lot of good things about them, so I'll definitely pick up a few. I know what ghostwalker means about GW colours such as red, especially when you want to thin your basecoat down without having to layer the same colour just for the sake of coverage.

@Ciaran: When I think of thin layers I generally imagine adding a little water to thin the paint itself (without turning it into a wash mind), only load a little on your brush (less and less as you get to details and highlights) and gently adding a soft layer of paint that should give decent coverage (unless the paint is naturally thin like mentioned before, in which case an extra layer or two will likely suffice), before adding a little (depending on how many layers you expect/want to use) of whatever your blending to (usually either your shadow, midtone or highlight colour) and keep adding these thiner layers. Flat surfaces should remain flat even with multiple layers, some paints (possibly Vallejo..) don't suit this method as they are naturally thick and become grainy after being watered down. I know some people who don't use washes but prefer to layer a model inside out, starting with the shadows and blending right up to the highlights. Thin layers help when working with 10-30 layers (yet to see how many I get up to)

I haven't done a great deal of research (White Dwarf is about it) and plan on doing more (particulary into non-metal metals and creating texture), but getting thin, smooth blends is one of the easier painting methods, all it takes is patience and the right tools (a brush helps). More experienced painters can probably give you better insight.

Probably been beaten to it for taken too long to type this.

EDIT: Boy was I right

[LoboStele]

At a guess i would say either too thin or too much paint on the brush. I try not to load too much onto the brush in one go. The other thing that can be a PitA is the ink not having dried properly. It can in recesses take forever to get to a stage where you can pain over it.

Cool, thanks. I'll try to pay attention to that next time.

[EricJ]

Don't forget you can use the fact that red is usually somewhat transparent to great effect to paint highlights.

For example, I usually paint red like this: (mind these are all relatively thin layers, blended at the edges for smooth transition)

1) paint area black

2) paint on base coat over black. It looks darker than standard base coat

3) paint highlight color over about 75% of the area

4) use base coat again on the middle 50%, so you leave the darkest areas dark, and the lighest areas light.

5) paint highlight color again over about 50% of the area

6) paint WHITE over the highest 15% of the area (or less depending on your style)

7) paint the highlight color again over the white

8) paint white over about the highest 5% of the area

9) paint very thin layer over that white.

The result is a blend which goes from a shadow that is deeper than your base coat, to your base coat, to a transition to your highlight color, to a much brighter version of your highlight, to a much much brighter version of your highlight. You get both the darker shadows and the brighter highlights by using the fact that red is semi transparent, and putting either black or white behind the layers of red.

A quick trick for painting red with bright highlights. Red is usually tough because if you try to get a brighter red by mixing which white, you end up with pink, which just looks wrong. You can also try highlighting with orange and yellow as well, which produces much nicer highlights.

[jmp_mydog]

I've looked into the foundation paints and heard a lot of good things about them, so I'll definitely pick up a few. I know what ghostwalker means about GW colours such as red, especially when you want to thin your basecoat down without having to layer the same colour just for the sake of coverage.

I too have been experimenting with the foundation paints. The nice thing I've found with them is you can thin them significantly and still get excellent coverage.