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The Dreamer, Rules Manual and Rules Marshalls


Definitechoice

Question

There seem to be a few issues that were ruled on in the past by Weird Sketch and Keltheos but are contrary to what is printed in the new Rules Manual. Some of these seem to be rule amendments designed to eliminate the specific issue by turning it into a general rule. For instance, the last paragraph of Multiple Activations(p.31) reverses this post by Keltheos. Another instance is that while before only the Dreamer could bypass the general rule on burying and unburying(Weird Sketch's ruling), now the general Buried(p.13) have been changed from "when the effect that buried them allows them to do so" to "when an effect allows it to do so."

This seems to establish that the Rules Manual trumps the prior Marshall rulings.

My main concern is this post by Keltheos, and the thread around it. Keltheos breaks the general Strike rules by stating that with melee strikes you cannot declare a target that is outside of your melee range. A Nightmare within 3" of the Dreamer but outside of melee range with a model trying to Strike the Dreamer would not be an eligible target and Shadowy Form would not take effect. However, no such requirement made it into the Rules Manual, and there is a clear distinction made between target and Legal Target(p.14). To declare a target, you need to check line of sight, special situations, and Talents/Spells that would prevent it. After that, range is measured and if the target is within range, it becomes a Legal Target. The Strike Sequence(p.42) reinforces this. "A model must be within the attacker's LoS to be declared the target of a Strike," then the range is checked and if "the target is out of range, is not a legal target. and the Strike fails."

So, should we be expecting a Dreamer errata changing Shadowy Form to require a Legal Target? Should this be played by the Rules Manual as written, or by the older ruling?

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I think it's a really neat idea to have the latest rulings in your signature always..

Maybe make a sticky in the forum where you edit in one liners such as those aswell.. It'd make it easy for people who doesn't frequent the forums as often to see what's been ruled in the meantime.

Hmm, might be too much work though.. Ah well..

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I think it's a really neat idea to have the latest rulings in your signature always..

Maybe make a sticky in the forum where you edit in one liners such as those aswell.. It'd make it easy for people who doesn't frequent the forums as often to see what's been ruled in the meantime.

Hmm, might be too much work though.. Ah well..

We did that with the extra errata...

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  • If Dreamer is within 3 inches of a nightmare
    • Non-Melee attacks will fail if the nightmare is not in range but is in LOS.
    • Melee Attacks can target Dreamer if the nightmare is out of range
    • Melee Attacks must target nightmare if it is within range

I'm a bit confused as to what makes the first bullet point right?

What prohibits ranged attacks from targeting the Dreamer if they are within range to him, and not to the Nightmare using the ruling above?

For example, if a model is 11.5" away from the Dreamer with a Teddy 3" behind him (Teddy is 14.5" away from the shooting model).

If the Shooting Model has a range of 12" and targets the Dreamer, can he succeed in shooting him? The Teddy is not a "legal target" because he is out of range, so Shadowy Form would not take affect?

Is this correct?

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I'm a bit confused as to what makes the first bullet point right?

What prohibits ranged attacks from targeting the Dreamer if they are within range to him, and not to the Nightmare using the ruling above?

For example, if a model is 11.5" away from the Dreamer with a Teddy 3" behind him (Teddy is 14.5" away from the shooting model).

If the Shooting Model has a range of 12" and targets the Dreamer, can he succeed in shooting him? The Teddy is not a "legal target" because he is out of range, so Shadowy Form would not take affect?

Teddy is still a target. Measuring range happens after determining if the model's eligible to be declared a target in the first place. So, Teddy's in LoS, you can't declare Dreamer as a target even if Ted's actually out of range. Just like if you'd wanted to shoot at Teddy at 14.5" and he was out of range. He can still be declared a target, but when you check that he's a legal target (i.e. in range) you find that he's too far to hit and the Duel never happens.

The Dreamer's Shadowy Form works in this way when it comes to timing (and it's geekeese heavy, so go with the flow):

1. You want to shoot the Dreamer (assuming your above ranges).

2. You declare that you will target the Dreamer.

3. (RM p.14) you check that the Dreamer's in LoS. Check.

4. (RM p.14) you check that there are any special situations that would prevent the Dreamer being targeted (outside of Talent/Spells). None, so far so good.

5. (RM p.14) You check if the Dreamer has any Talents/Spells that would prevent it being targeted. Shadowy Form...ok. Let's check Teddy as a target.

6. You check to see if Teddy is in LoS. yup.

7. Are there any special situations preventing you declaring Teddy as a target? Nope.

8. Does Teddy have any Talents/Spells that would prevent it being targeted? Nope.

9. Teddy could be declared a target.

10. The Dreamer's Shadowy Form kicks in so you cannot target him. It doesn't fizzle anything as you're checking if he's eligible to even be targeted at this point.

11. Change targets if you so choose. Let's say you do and declare Teddy. We already know he can be targeted.

12. Check range to Teddy, he's out of range, therefore he's not a legal target of the attack.

13. Without a legal target the attack misses (RM p.42).

whew. Now this is too long to put into a sigline.

Folks are blending when target choice/declaration/range measurement/legal target for a strike duel to occur together. The above's the exploded view of what's going on.

Edited by Keltheos
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Ah, ok, I couldn't find anywhere in the book that said that someone out of range for a Melee attack isn't a legal target. The only reference I could find to legal target was at the beginning of the book (page 14 I believe) that says you declare and then measure, and if you are in range it's a legal target.

Do you know where it refers to melee range being required for it to be a legal target? I know I'll get asked at my local store.

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Yeah, page 42. it's in the first step before the Duel begins (1. Declare Target, then Check Range). Since melee range can be checked whenever you're always aware of whether two models are engaged or not.

You'd know before even saying you want to target the Dreamer Teddy's not a legal target when it comes to melee range. I am going to revise the errata above to clarify the difference between melee and ranged though.

Spot Errata/FAQ addition: Replace Shadowy Form description with "Enemy models cannot target the Dreamer with Actions or Strikes if there is a friendly Nightmare within 3” of the Dreamer that could be a legal target of the Action."

This covers the above for ranged timing as well as the melee situations and legal targets. Same intent, clarified to cover the new Rules Manual 'legal target' terminology.

Edited by WEiRD sKeTCH
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Ok, threadomancy here.

Just to sum up, if the Dreamer is less then 3in from Teddy and the dreamer is in Ikyro's melee and Teddy is outside of Ikyro's melee, she can bash the Dreamer.

But if Nino is shooting the dreamer he has to target Teddy and if Teddy is out of range the attack fails.

I just don't get it. On page 14 of the newer Little Rule Book, it talks about legal target and mentions range, so if your out of shooting range how is that a legal target? Its not. So shadowy form is errata'd to say "legal target in melee and target at range"?

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As far as I'm aware the final revision of Shadowy form was that the Nightmare must be a legal target in order to deflect the attack from the Dreamer. A legal target in terms of melee means the defender has to be in melee range and LoS. A legal target in terms of ranged attack means the defender has only to be in LoS (he is then targeted, but if out of range the attack fizzles).

:)

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Right I have that book marked, Kel's errata.

Para phrasing: Enemies cannot target the Dreamer if he's within 3in of a friendly nightmare if the nightmare could be a legal target.

But page 14 says to be a legal target you have to be in range. "If the target is within the effect's range and meets the above requirements, it is considered a legal target of the effect."

Strike attack sequence on pg 42 says "otherwise, the target is out of range, is not a legal trget, and the strike fails." So that's for shooting or melee.

I'm under the impression that if the dream has teddy 2.5in behind him and nino has only rng to shoot the dreamer, he would fail because teddy is within line of sign which makes him a target. But when you check he's out, so he's not a legal target, and the rng attack fails.

So melee works differently because its been errata'd? Even though the sequence for a strike on pg 42 says declare target, then check range. And if your out of range you fail.

Maybe I'm missing a page in the book?

Edited by Truefaith
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I also have a question :

You all keep referring to an attack "failing"....if that's the case, does that mean that the AP spent on the strike is still spent? Or since it can not be a legal target, the point is NOT spent and you can basically try again on another target (or use the point on whatever if it's a general AP)?

"Failed" seems to imply that you've got all the way "through" the strike - so to speak - and so the point would be spent.

I have only battled a few crews so far, and the Dreamer is by far the most difficult to figure out how to stop. My opponent plays the crew really really well, and after the game HE said he didn't know how to stop it! Knowing this sequence and the ruling helps a bit, as I think I can now figure out a way on how to mitigate this crew's seeming invulnerability.

Thanks!

Edited by Kintaro
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Yes, the AP are spent as soon as you declare the action, and are thus wasted.

On beating the Dreamer: all of his models are squishy (even Chompy) and he relies on a few key pieces (i.e. blow up those Daydreams whenever you get a chance). That, and watch out for Alp Bombs (which usually aren't too bad once you figure out how to disarm them).

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Question,

The Dreamer have Master of Dreams abilitie, that gives him max. to 5 more ss to the ss pool; that means i can have more than max. 8 ss (from basic rules)?

No thats just his starting cache it is between 0-5 dependant on how many nightmares he hires (it caps at 5 if you hire over this amount)

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It is counter-intuitive I know but the difference is in what is a legal target for a melee attack, and what is a legal target for a ranged attack.

A legal target for a melee attack is a model that is in LoS and within the melee weapon's range. If the model is not within the Melee weapon's range it is not a legal target. And since you may always check your melee range to see what is within it you will always know if one of the Dreamer's nightmare's is able to be targeted instead of him via shadowy form.

A legal target for a Ranged attack only requires that the target be in LoS.

Once you have declared your target you might be found to be out of range and therefore your action would fizzle, but the actual targeting is not limited by distance.

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