ThePandaDirector Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 While the large engagements people mention never really happen the way they are suggested, I do think the tone is what suggests it more often than not. Not within the actual fights that are apparently too big, but the smaller scenes. I think the whole melodrama that prevails a lot of the plot and sub-plots, is a little too pre-post-apocolyptic end. The Riders and the whole sense that we seemed to both start and continue within the "dark second chapter" is a little irritating. I like characters like Hoffman because their trials are genuine and engaging, and sure they don't mention Tyrants, but nor do they promise the lure of eternal damnation either. The fact that almost everyone, whether they like Tyrants or not, has said that the faction stories were near perfect says all it needs to say. I could honestly enjoy The Dark Knight without Batman (not sure about the Joker though), and I can enjoy Malifaux without Masters nevermind these Tyrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alansmithee Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 But this is completely inaccurate - firstly Book 1 is the only book where multiple masters fight a Tyrant (December) - if anything the end of book 2 conflict with Plague is more about individual schemes - Justice is not even aware of Hamlin's presence when she attacks - she is focused on fighting Nicodem's undead minions and just happens to get caught up in the general plague storyline, as does Hoffman (who is investigating the Kirai murders)... As for book 3, besides Hamlin who is a Tyrant (and barely appears), Sonnia, Rasputina and Seamus, no other masters interact with Tyrants at all... Leveticus and Zoraida (and by extension, the rest of the Neverborn masters) are preparing to fight Avatars, but everyone else is actually carrying out their own sub plots that they apparently have no time for... Hoffman, Justice, Ramos, Marcus, McMourning, and Nicodem all spend sometime in the Spot light and their story lines don't even touch on Tyrants... See, I think you're missing a lot of subtle things that are happening, which is probably why you're not picking up on it. I don't see why you think Leveticus and Zoraida are planning on fighting avatars, since the whole riders theme is an end of the world trope as old as the bible. In book 3 they start alluding to the fact that LCB might himself be a tyrant, and also that the box Pandora carries has links. Same for Kirai's spirit. Even the mysterious symbol on the constructs that Hoffman and Justice investigate is very vague. You're also forgetting Kirai in book 2 as part of that whole battle (even if you're somehow claiming Hoffman and Justice weren't part of it). Also you seem to not have noticed that other people have voiced similar (if not identical) feelings about the whole tyrant plots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 See, I think you're missing a lot of subtle things that are happening, which is probably why you're not picking up on it. I don't see why you think Leveticus and Zoraida are planning on fighting avatars, since the whole riders theme is an end of the world trope as old as the bible. In book 3 they start alluding to the fact that LCB might himself be a tyrant, and also that the box Pandora carries has links. Same for Kirai's spirit. Even the mysterious symbol on the constructs that Hoffman and Justice investigate is very vague. You're also forgetting Kirai in book 2 as part of that whole battle (even if you're somehow claiming Hoffman and Justice weren't part of it). Also you seem to not have noticed that other people have voiced similar (if not identical) feelings about the whole tyrant plots. I'm not "forgetting anything" - Leveticus and Zoraida literally are training to fight Tyrants - its right there in his Avatar fluff... Obviously Kirai was there - she dealt the killing blow to Hamlin in the battle at the Observatory, but to suggest that Hoffman and Justice joined forces with her to take Hamlin down is laughable - they weren't even aware of Hamlin's presence there, and certainly didn't fight him (even if they did get caught up in the swirling melee between his minions and the Ressurectionists)... I'm also aware of other subtle links to Tyrants, but this is a slow burn rather than a focus - it would be wrong to suggest that everyone is focusing on Tyrants - many of the characters are not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 I'm afraid this isn't the first time I've looked down and seen a long post. Apologies. ... Till next time Interesting take on it - thanks. Over it, I will mull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad_Badger Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Is this a bad time to point out that I've met Sholto and his rack is nowhere near as impressive as his avatar's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 No, but they are 100% natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Possible spoilers below. Right now, I'm just wondering if we are gonna see any characters make a plot relevant power-up to henchman or master--specifically Samual Hopkins and Misaki, given what happened in book three. I could actually see both of them becoming henchman or masters now. Heck, all Sam really needs is an ability or 2 for synergy, and a henchman pool. I can see it now---Samual Hopkins, Tyrant hunter, and Misaki, Mistress of the Nine Thunders. I suppose I should spoiler most of that, if I knew how(not sure if code from other places would work here...) I know you can't comment on whether it'll actually happen, but...one wink, wink, nudge, nudge, for yes, two for no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Spoilers are sort of implied in a thread specifically designed to discuss the fluff, so I wouldn't worry about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osoi Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Well you also have Francisco learning to use soulstones in Rising Powers too. So options are there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Issalbotproto Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 The only thing i have to say about the fluff, is that it makes me really really wish I could run a Mcmouring+Marcus Brawl team v.v... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) The only thing i have to say about the fluff, is that it makes me really really wish I could run a Mcmouring+Marcus Brawl team v.v... You can... you can do anything you want it's you that is playing the game, you just need to get your opponents permission. Anyone cool probably would allow it... I would allow it because it would be fun (as long as you allow my Leveticus/Zoraida double team, how would you work out what you could take in that team up.. Euck).. The way I would probably play it is go Rezers and choose McMourning as my main master, then add Marcus to add beasts to my selection. Edited October 12, 2011 by Ratty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) No, but they are 100% cotton. Stitched that up for you =] As for unique minions becoming Henchmen, I think we'll probably see a lot of the mechanic suggested in the Ronin's profile (upgrading to Henchman), possibly in the next book (Special Forces?) Wyrd have pretty much covered everything they wanted to put in Book 1 - Henchmen, Avatars, etc. Storywise they've managed to establish almost all the characters and develop some to a reasonable level. Without getting back into the tired Tyrant debate, I will say my biggest complaint.. the thing that needs most work, is the pace of the story. Even though individual stories work rather well, and it doesn't feel like a great deal is actually achieved overall, it still leaps from winter to drought and certain character developments come out jarred. Of course somethings do have that opposite effect (Lady Justice achieved nothing, and while possibly setting up for later, it still felt anti-climatic after the cliffhanger in RP). So what I'd like to see in time for the next book, is some extra fluff before the books release, possibly tied to new releases. Then when the book is released I'd like it to provide a deeper, clearer, more in depth view of the characters and the world. If it does focus on Special Forces I'd like to get some factual, even historic context. I mean, speaking as someone who writes and makes "movies", History was my favourite subject at school and inspired me far more than English, Art, Drama or Media Studies. I think some historic storytelling - a detailed insight into a subject, with well paced sensionalisation to engage the reader - would really benefit Malifaux. Malifaux doesn't feel like Infinity, it's not a manga geekfest where the story comes second to the cool robots. Malifaux takes all the cool stuff in history - wars of independence, wild west expansion, Victorian London, Cold War (Guild vs Arcanists), mythology, iconic fiction of the period (Frankenstein, Sandman, etc) - and makes it feel real and tells a story, but also gives the player the ability to tell their own stories, and recreate their favourite "historic event". It might sound like I want the fantasy element (hot babes with big swords) to be dulled down - not at all =p - but I do think realism, as opposed to plain grittiness, is needed. Detail, but without sacrificing pace. And exploit what has worked. Going back to Marcus, good job, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, Marcus' development opened a door, but we haven't quite went through it yet. The part where the door opened was very nice, but you need to go and deliver the goods (avoiding what happened with Justice). It's hard to not just ask for a cliched series of flashbacks for each character - seeing Marcus at work back Earthside, etc - and though I feel there is merit there, it shouldn't be treated like an episode of Lost. I am a big fan of Dan Abnett, and while his plot is usually weak, his characters and their development, is almost always stellar. Take Gregor Eisenhorn for example, in the Eisenhorn Trilogy he goes from puritan to radical - quite literally from one side of the spectrum to the other - but he doesn't really change (from one extreme to another), he still has the same values, the same quirks. Without giving anything away, there is a scene where he is on the verge of defeat and the only possible solution is blatant heresy. In a wonderfully structured moment we see his rationalisation, he remembers his old professor and his warning against radicalism, then he argues why this time is different, he remembers each character who has been an angel on his shoulder, and he breaks them down "they don't understand" "this is different" etc. all leading to the point where he crosses that line. That moment didn't just happen, it didn't curveball despite still having impact - most of those memories happened earlier in the novel, some where things we're vaguley aware of. I think it is that level of set-up that the characters in Malifaux could really benefit from, so 'Tina doesn't go from "oh December, he's a pal" to "shut up, I'm nobody's fool". For me as a reader, to actually care who has control of 'Tina, she - at least (must avoid Tyrant discussion) - has to be someone with a moral or emotional dilema greater than her not wanting to be a puppet. It's strange because the dilema is so big (she's fighting for her very soul), but the momentum is undermined by the fact that we don't know anything about her soul, and if it's actually worth giving a damn about. I mean really, what is the difference between 'Tina as she is and being like Hamelin? - possibly her voice and choice of hat.. and that's about it. Funnily enough I really warmed to human Hamelin when he was introduced, I was sad when he was killed, and yet he - an arguably better established character than 'Tina - was replaced with a monotone slab with a face drawn on it. As much as I like Marcus, I think Hoffman is the poster boy for everyone else. He feels real, I feel like I could begin an almost historic biopic of his life. Details like Ryle playing Rugby for some reason make the story feel more cinematic than when he was "attacked" by Ramos (though that was awesome). It's like that saying "I think therefore I am", Malifaux only exists because the characters are real, they interact with it, so it must. And everywhere Hoffman goes, Malifaux solidifies around him. As for your more fantasy element, Pandora was an unlikely candidate for some imaginative and well delivered development. Then there's Molly who I have high hopes for - I honestly no longer like Seamus, purely because I feel her resentment for him lying it wait inside her hollow chest, so the good kind of dislike =] It's odd how the background characters who haven't seen a great deal of coverage, are my favourites. I think Hoffman, and possibly McMourning buck that trend, but then as good as they both are they haven't achieved much, which would be ok if the rest of the story wasn't hurtling towards something deep and profound that will explode your mind. And suddenly I am reminded of what Doctor Who said in the final episode of the last series "I got too big, too loud. It's time to go back into the shadows" Something like that at least, and I think it's good advice. Take the spotlight off those big shiny things that look so pretty when they sparkle, and cast it into the deeper shadows, where characters fear to tread. Oh! And have a Panda! Edited October 12, 2011 by ThePandaDirector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 My cirticism is, there isn't enough of it. This might sound fanboyish I want to read more, what I mean is the're is too much plot and not enough fluff to tell it in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustcrusher Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I think my favorites from Twisting Fates are Witchling 263 and Molly's story, with the Arcanist sabotage plot and Misaki's story close behind. Molly and Philip are my new favorite characters fluff-wise. Most writers would've gone the easy route- either "what have I become?" emo whining or "I yam what I yam/undead = EVIL" mindlessness ad nauseam. Borrring. Instead, Molly and Philip are making the best of an awful situation, figuring out their powers and limitations, doing very bad things for their own ends or sometimes for the right reasons. Definitely not the good guys, but clearly not entirely evil, either. Philip takes being a severed head surprisingly well- I hope if that ever happens to me I can follow his example. As a side note, am I the only one who him with a slight English accent? There were a few specific turns of phrase that I didn't like much (don't have my books in front of me at the moment), but I nitpick hard when it comes to that sort of thing. The only other thing I can think of right now echoes what's been said about Hamelin. It's tricky to give depth to an ostensibly single-minded character, but I think das writervolken are up to the task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Dear Wyrd If we give you Lady J, can we have Sonnia back, please Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Um. OT, but when did PandaDirector become a puppet Slate Ridge Mauler?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Um. OT, but when did PandaDirector become a puppet Slate Ridge Mauler?? This morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 RAWR!!! Who wants a four-armed bear hug then? That's a point, where's the SRM in all this fluff huh? And while we're at it I haven't spotted one single Panda - now that's just racist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 RAWR!!! Who wants a four-armed bear hug then? That's a point, where's the SRM in all this fluff huh? And while we're at it I haven't spotted one single Panda - now that's just racist The panda are too busy making Kung-Fu films Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Issalbotproto Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 You can... you can do anything you want it's you that is playing the game, you just need to get your opponents permission. Anyone cool probably would allow it... I would allow it because it would be fun (as long as you allow my Leveticus/Zoraida double team, how would you work out what you could take in that team up.. Euck).. The way I would probably play it is go Rezers and choose McMourning as my main master, then add Marcus to add beasts to my selection. Yeah we do alot of stuff like that I just wish when an official event came up it could be listed on the card so i could do it, kinda like how Hoffman can take Coppelius XP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 The panda are too busy making Kung-Fu films Or Mali-fu =] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad_Badger Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I've got a fluff question - namely the nature of the Aethervox. I think it is some sort of radio or wireless, but is it a commonplace device that many Malifaux residents have access to? Os is some sort of arcane device that only a few Arcanists have been able to operate? (sorry if this has been addressed already, but wading through 33 pages of discussion seemed a bit daunting) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I've got a fluff question - namely the nature of the Aethervox. I think it is some sort of radio or wireless, but is it a commonplace device that many Malifaux residents have access to? Os is some sort of arcane device that only a few Arcanists have been able to operate? (sorry if this has been addressed already, but wading through 33 pages of discussion seemed a bit daunting) Its more like a Radio I think, although it seems to pick up "weird" things... There's a little story about it in book 1 and if memory serves its about a guy who saved up to buy one, and then spends all his time listening to it and eventually goes nuts and murders people... So I think its likely that not everyone has one, but many people do - most probably don't own one of their own (apart form the wealthy) but they can probably listen to it in public places... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad_Badger Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 That's what threw me, actually. There's mention of the aethervox being used by the Guild when they are closing in on Kyratha, but there's also the story of that chap you mentioned that listened to the static on his aethervox and went insane. So...is it a receiver like an old valve radio? Or is it a transmitter, like a cb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I think it is a bit of both, depending on how you build it. Think of it like magic radio; most of the time it works fine but every now and then, like anything in Malifaux, Bad Things Happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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