Ratty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Generally speaking, women in Malifaux aren´t oversexized, compared to what kids can see in TV / MTV whatever. They are also not all wafer thin models. Lilith is fairly Rubenesque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Again, I don't know which beaches or pools you go to. Female nudity, at least in the states, comes with an 18+ rating. Not sure why it'd be different if we're just talking about models here. Thats probably the reason then. I'm from the UK, and whilst baring breasts on certain UK beaches could possibly be considered a faux pas (as well as brave..bloody cold!), I go on holiday to Greece, turkey, Spain etc and naked breasts are a common feature on beaches and poolside. No-one seems to bat an eyelid. I guess it proves that the culture we grow up in shapes our viewpoints. Female nudity is acceptable on TV over here as long as its after the 9pm watershed. If its particularly explicit, it will have a warning before it, bot never rated 18 (as far as i know). And i agree, that sexually explicit models (ie those showing some sort of sexual undertones or just outright displaying it!) shouldn't be in the prescence of minors. But the models in Malifaux are fine, its only a little cleavage or a bit of leg. Kids see a lot more flesh on a day to day basis with todays fashions! I wouldn't have a problem with a child seeing a nude model if it was appropriate for the figure (Ie A Fairy, or woodland Nymph). All you have to do is explain things to them. But as I said before, I draw the line at images of sex. Here's the thing: she's an exception. We all know it, we all get it. We can sit there and say "But Sonnia's okay!" over and over again, or we can look at the situation as a whole. Sure, some of the female models are fine. The others are the problem. But you have just contradicted yourself. You say we shouldn't use Sonnia as an example because we all know she's ok, yet you want us to look at the situation as a whole. Sonnia is therefore included in the 'whole'. The only problems I can see with the 'outfits' that the questionable ones are wearing are practicality! I guess It all comes down to the differences in our cultures and upbringings, as well as our perceptions of the images and models before us. Some women love Malifaux and the models, some don't. Some Men love Malifaux and the models, others don't! No one person is correct, no one is wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 You have to be 18 or older to purchase a Playboy. I don't see how changing the breasts to being teeny-tiny changes that. I thought that Playboy had quite a bit of other things besides breasts in it (though I haven't ever read the mag so could be wrong). Seriously, there is a difference in depiction between naked breasts on a Daemonette compared to, say, ones on Pegaso pin-up range just like there is a difference between how male form is depicted in Michelangelo's David as compared to Playgirl. Are you seriously saying that Botticelli's Venus is seen as 18+ material in the States? Now, of course you (generic 'you') could attack the analogy based on how Daemonettes aren't Michelangelo or Botticelli quality art but that is not the point of the analogy and I really hope that you don't. The point of the analogy is that there are different kinds of nudity and warhammer minis tend to fall in the non-porn part of the categorization. I certainly wouldn't mind if my children saw Daemonette minis. I'm 100% certain that they wouldn't be adversely affected by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Generally speaking, women in Malifaux aren´t oversexized, compared to what kids can see in TV / MTV whatever. Oh man I love that word! Oversexized, is that in a dictionary because it should be!! You, my dear fellow, have added another word to my already twisted vocabulary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 AbsoluteBlack : You are welcome I´m sorry, I´m not a native speaker And some oil to the flame : The hair! Lady J and Perdita have long hair! That has a sexual undertone as well, because generally feminity means long hair! The models should go to the barber to make it genderly equal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakshaani Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 As for "Special Dances", has Chris ROck taught you nothing? There ain't no sex in the champagne room. I can set that to music for you if you'd like. [ame] [/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 And some oil to the flame : The hair! Lady J and Perdita have long hair! That has a sexual undertone as well, because generally feminity means long hair! The models should go to the barber to make it genderly equal! Like Sybelle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakshaani Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 We're staying away from religion on principle. This one's a shame, simply because a western setting needs a hard-drinkin' Padre and some nuns, while a Victorian setting cries out for some exorcism-tossing types (or one who's flipped sides) ... you have winged demons, for goodness sakes, the lack of a flipside to fight that is ... glaring. Then again, there'd be a push for "Sexy nuns with guns" (or swords) and, really, do we need more of those at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 This one's a shame, simply because a western setting needs a hard-drinkin' Padre and some nuns, while a Victorian setting cries out for some exorcism-tossing types (or one who's flipped sides) ... you have winged demons, for goodness sakes, the lack of a flipside to fight that is ... glaring. Then again, there'd be a push for "Sexy nuns with guns" (or swords) and, really, do we need more of those at this point? Indeed not.. I can go watch Machette for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Hunttroll : No, thanks. I am completly satisfied with all models,not the one with the problem. And padres and nun with guns would be...dunno, just not the cup of tea and it could mess the fluff a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Can't argue with the creator here. Thanks for the clarification. I'm happy to help. And, for further clarification - I'm all for both freedom of speech and thought. I very much appreciate my own ambiguity regarding many issues written - knowing and encouraging readers to "read into it" however they might. It's part of my style and one Nathan and Eric appreciate. We talk about a lot of those issues as they come up. I actually tend to agree with your wife's taste, although I find Rasputina to be dressed a little oddly for her environment--too much cheesecake, not enough 'holy crap, this is cold." And I admit I haven't seen the Vickies in the new rule book. The Victoria image might push you, I predict. Rasputina is wearing a skirt showing leg but I never thought it was oversexualized. I think her model is a great example of taste and helps define the unique fashion of this setting. Opinions, I guess. "Holy crap, this is cold" is not something Rasputina is ever likely to say. I thought the chapters at the end with her up in the mountain would have made that clear? She has a frozen heart. She won't freeze. She'll never be cold. She's powerful magically, sure, but how is she in terms of her character? Uncontrollable Crying alone suggests that she's far from healthy, and her story has done little to suggest that she's a healthy, "strong" woman. I'm sure there's plans for her in the future. She's not crying by the end. Doesn't she grow tremendously in just one book? Introduced, lover killed, runs for her life, despairs, disembodies her own spirit to go out and seek revenge against those that did her wrong, discovers she's the most powerful person in Malifaux - able to drag spirits out of the Aether [a feat no Tyrant can even do] and begins to learn how to control it. Not crying at the end. She's on a mission now. Hear her roar. Quick questions: how many female characters are described in terms of their physical appearance? How many have abilities directly relating to physical attractiveness? And how many men are described as handsome or have any sort of abilities based on their good looks? Jeesh. I don't know, dude. Um, my fault? I'm a male writer writing to an audience I'm pretty sure is vastly male? And I'm pretty sure I've written about male physique - certainly with Joss. And I did it with several of the characters in the next book, I promise. Gideon was described as physically rugged and handsome. Lelu has sexual undertones and an overt masochist thing going on in image and abilities. Leveticus is lecherous. Ramos just walks in to the dressing room of the girls and they're all very uncomfortable about it. I'm actually fairly certain it was a randomly named Performer that said that to Joss, not Cassandra. And Joss has been described as falling for Cassie. That said, I've yet to actually meet someone, face-to-face, who didn't think that "special dance" was a way of writing something the writers really didn't want to just state outright. Okay. The girls don't typically dance with people. They dance on stage. Like chorus girls. A "special dance" means "when we're done with our act I'll come out and dance with you like the other men and ladies are dancing. Since we're the celebrities it'll be very special and everyone will look at you like you're a stud. Because it would be just like dancing with Natalie Portman or Nicole Kidman." That's what was intended. Not "sweaty back room dance with my clothes in the corner." Edited February 25, 2011 by nerdelemental Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 This one's a shame, simply because a western setting needs a hard-drinkin' Padre and some nuns, while a Victorian setting cries out for some exorcism-tossing types (or one who's flipped sides) ... you have winged demons, for goodness sakes, the lack of a flipside to fight that is ... glaring. Then again, there'd be a push for "Sexy nuns with guns" (or swords) and, really, do we need more of those at this point? I don't disagree. However, as we're trying to demonstrate, we'd handle religion with respect and delicacy, just like we do our females in the game world. Nuns will not be sexy with guns if they were to ever show up. I don't think nuns will show up. Missionaries, priests, exorcists? Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Nerdelemental : Thank you, kind Sir. For solving the problem of special dance which is....for example Berliner Waltz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Missionaries, priests, exorcists? Time will tell. A badass Undead/Neverborn hunting preacher would not offend anyone IMHO, and would be totally awesome. Nuns with guns are not offensive, either, but they would be almost as boring as c.lowns or vampires. Though a crew of vampiric nurses dressed as c.lowns... Now thats interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 What about nuns that were prostitutes that turned into zombie hunters but then were killed and became zombies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 There´s definetly lack of werewolves. So, nuns that were prostitutes that turned into werewolf hunters but then were bitten and became werewolves. Afterwards, they were killed and became zombies?Which makes them protistute nun werewolf hunter zombies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Oh man...Define nudity, please.Because to pools, where I go, women wear often bikini ! What a nightmare, I could see the skin ! I would rather be offended by creepyness and gore than that some female characters look femine in terms of setting. Please don't confuse bikini-clad women with female nudity. Furthermore, it seems as though you are implying that bared flesh somehow equates to femininity. If that is the case, then I have to completely disagree--being feminine does not require skimpy outfits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 The Victoria image might push you, I predict. Rasputina is wearing a skirt showing leg but I never thought it was oversexualized. I think her model is a great example of taste and helps define the unique fashion of this setting. Opinions, I guess. "Holy crap, this is cold" is not something Rasputina is ever likely to say. I thought the chapters at the end with her up in the mountain would have made that clear? She has a frozen heart. She won't freeze. She'll never be cold. Which is why she's wearing a bearskin robe and hat, of course. The half-covered, half-exposed look is just odd and cheesecakey. She's not crying by the end. Doesn't she grow tremendously in just one book? Introduced, lover killed, runs for her life, despairs, disembodies her own spirit to go out and seek revenge against those that did her wrong, discovers she's the most powerful person in Malifaux - able to drag spirits out of the Aether [a feat no Tyrant can even do] and begins to learn how to control it. Not crying at the end. She's on a mission now. Hear her roar. And that mission involves her using Uncontrollable Crying as much as possible. Even if the woman has "grown" (which is honestly debatable--your intentions may have been one thing, but she goes from being sad to being angry, and from having a man control her to having another man control her), the rules certainly do not reflect that. Jeesh. I don't know, dude. Um, my fault? I'm a male writer writing to an audience I'm pretty sure is vastly male? And I'm pretty sure I've written about male physique - certainly with Joss. And I did it with several of the characters in the next book, I promise. Gideon was described as physically rugged and handsome. Lelu has sexual undertones and an overt masochist thing going on in image and abilities. Leveticus is lecherous. Ramos just walks in to the dressing room of the girls and they're all very uncomfortable about it. In other words, one, perhaps two male characters have been described as attactive, and none have rules to reflect that. And yes, you have your audience, but that does not mean that Malifaux is in any way "feminist" in its portrayal of women, on the whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Please don't confuse bikini-clad women with female nudity. Whats funny is a bikini clad woman would have less close on then almost every female Malifaux model. The reason a bikini does not offend most people is because society has deemed it that way. For all intensive purposes a woman in a bikini is walking around in her underwear which by most people standards is basically naked(or at least more then half naked). The fact is if people are easily offended by the models in Malifaux then they just shouldn't play. But the out cry to "Think of Children" has no basis. The fact is no model in the game is any less dressed then half the bimbos in bikinis walking around on a beach or most of the dancers in music video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) nerdelemental, wow, thank you. I DID get the intended meaning then! I thought that taken as a whole there was no way anyone could read into it the way it's been described. Fantastic work on it. I've never seen the main characters to be victims, at worst they're people that we see going through a rough spot that changes them. Somebody asked about the painting "Venus" and whether or not it's considered 18+. Yes, it is, to some people. Michaelangelo's David is as well, by some people. Considering art is about evoking internal images, emotions, and having a conversation with your audience regarding the subject, pieces should always emphasis different things to illicit the response. Edited February 25, 2011 by Ciaran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 What about nuns that were prostitutes that turned into zombie hunters but then were killed and became zombies? I'd pay money to see a movie like that. Start writing the script, I will track down some people in Hollywood to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 If Kirai can turn her "Uncontrollable Crying" on and off, it's not really that uncontrollable, is it? Seems more like, maybe, something she's learned to exploit? JP obviously has his mind made up. He sees issues, and nothing any of us can say will change it - the non-problem ones are irrelevant, or there will always be more with problems, or the problems will be worse than the good, or the problem characters will have more letters in their names than the ones that aren't. Seriously - we've reached the point where he's arguing over how cold Rasputina would be and why she would wear a jacket and hat if not for the cold. I think this has run its course, at least for me. I've certainly come out with a greater appreciation for the strength of the female characters in Malifaux (not that I didn't already have a lot) and a renewed respect for humanity's ability to find something to be offended about when they go looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 So, real sexy woman in bikini are all right, but models like Rasputina are bad? I still don´t get your point, JRoth, except for beeing ubertroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 And yes, you have your audience, but that does not mean that Malifaux is in any way "feminist" in its portrayal of women, on the whole. And why on earth should a tabletop wargame be feminist? :surprised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 So, real sexy woman in bikini are all right, but models like Rasputina are bad? I still don´t get your point, JRoth, except for beeing ubertroll. You are, perhaps unintentionally, trying to mix multiple stances into a single one. A woman is free to dress however she desires, barring any dress codes and/or public decency laws (and, in those cases, the issue is legality, not morality). A miniature war game, on the other hand, gets creepy if all the women are half-naked. If Kirai can turn her "Uncontrollable Crying" on and off, it's not really that uncontrollable, is it? Seems more like, maybe, something she's learned to exploit? I'd agree here, except for the "uncontrollable" bit. It's a very minor point, but even calling it "Crocodile Tears" would have gotten the point across, if that were the case. And why on earth should a tabletop wargame be feminist? :surprised Why on earth shouldn't it? The way this conversation went, someone said that Malifaux was the most pro-feminist game on the market. I disagreed and gave my reasons as to why I felt it failed in that regard. From that point on, people have been trying to pick apart my stance and look for logical inconsistencies, which, of course, are going to happen. Malifaux is a great game. It just isn't feminist, or even particularly great about how it portrays women. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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