Strategy against Pandora

[BenjaminBullet]

Now that I have a few games under my belt I feel like I'm really starting to get the feel for Lucius and his crew but my biggest challenge will be against Pandora and her thousand cuts of stupidness... Any ideas on how to beat her? So far my plan is to take Ryle since he's immune to things that make you make wp duels and maybe the lawyer to censor her spell casting. Thoughts?

[roboshmoo]

Ryle won't really help much since his ability gets borked by Pandora while he is within 12".

This.

The Box Opens does not require a model to make a Wp Duel. What it does do, is take away any immunities a model COULD have when performing a Wp Duel.

Breach Psychosis falls into the category of an immunity that Pandora's The Box Opens strips away.

[Bas1]

Now that I have a few games under my belt I feel like I'm really starting to get the feel for Lucius and his crew but my biggest challenge will be against Pandora and her thousand cuts of stupidness... Any ideas on how to beat her? So far my plan is to take Ryle since he's immune to things that make you make wp duels and maybe the lawyer to censor her spell casting. Thoughts?

Take Perdita

[karn987]

*cracks knuckles*

I will start off by telling you that no matter what I say or people come up with to deal with Pandora, there is a way to counter that. There is no full proof plan for dealing with her or beating her and it's one of her greatest strengths.

But that said, Ill dive into some general advice and see if that helps. If not, ask specific questions and Ill do my best to answer them for you.

The biggest mistake people often make when trying to design a list to beat her is that she can take literally any crew and still be very good. The center of her power is her and not her crew (unlike masters like the Dreamer and Zoraida). She is the Alpha and Omega while she is on the board and a clever Pandora player will MAKE you deal with her turn after turn. She is deadly with no Wp supporting models and deadly with them, she can play just about any crew style.

One old fall back advice is to go with Perdita (for Seen the Unseen to be able to shoot past Expose Fear) and her family models for their Alpha strike. Pandora's Wp defense (ie Expose Fears and Fading Memory) will not hold out forever and her squishiness after this makes her drop fast. So on way is threat saturation with high damage model. This is one of the best tactics for the guild since you are high damage (Critical Strike anyone?). Make each hit something she needs to stop and make any hit that gets through punishing to her.

Now it is certainly important to deal with her crew, but if it's not a Wp themed list they are each really individual threats rather then cogs in her machine. So in this case, tackle each one separately. Try to draw them away from Pandora by baiting them and then killing them. The real danger comes when Pandora decides to focus on a model and layers her Debuffs on that model. At that point, its hard for you to do much. Through Project Emotions and Self Loathing she can force most models to kill themselves rather quickly and Dementia will help insure they are neutralized and slowly dieing. So try and hit models before Pandora can lock you down. There stands a decent chance each turn that she will be the first model activating.

Against a Wp based crew, high Wp and Stubborn are your best defenses and just accept that you will be hit by these effects. You will probably have to feed her a model or two to get through, but just make it worth your while. Your really not safe from any Wp effect she and her crew can deal to you because of The box Opens and Madness's weapon. Lilitu is a lure machine and expect to see her on the board as there is very little reason to not bring her with Pandora.

With guild I would recommend Constructs as a possible choice because they don't fall back due to moral duels. If she has Terrifying models, expect her to try and make use of them and cause your crew to flee. But next to nothing is safe from her Trigger. So really the best you can do is grit your teath, and try to play so that no one model is essential to your plan. Keep high cards in your hand for defense but for the love of Zoraida, use them on offense if you get a chance. Never EVER pass up a chance to deal damage to her and her crew if your not going to suffer for it.

Ranged models are always a good choice because they can start chipping away at her before you get within the range of Sorrows who will pretty much spell end of game for you. Hit her from father away and dont worry if Expose Fears get you, just keep shooting. She can't keep it up for ever and long range models like Hans can hit her from outside her 12" zone of effects.

On the subject of Sorrows, if you let her get close with a few Sorrows its basically over. Unless you can win the Wp duels to follow, your taking 2 - 5 Wds per failed Wp duel and each is a seperate source of 1 Wd so Prevention flips do little. AE's are a good choice for this, but beware of Papa Loco. He will wipe an area if he gets close, but he almost never makes it that close. You could do some Obey shenanigans and use him as a homing missile during mid game. But its very situational.

Most of the time, the only option you will have each turn is to chip away at her crew. TAKE IT. Aim for things like Candy, Lilitu, Madness, and Sorrows as soon as you get a chance. If you ever get a shot on the Doppelganger, take it and make it count. The Doppelganger is an amazing model with Pandora because it hoses your initiative flips and lets Pandora have 2 Emotional Trauma's up at once, doubling the Wd loss per failed Wp duel. Look for these key models and try to down them. Even then, as you kill them your only weakening her. The loss of her entire crew will still leave Pandora quite deadly so eventually, you will have to deal with her.

If you can help it, avoid any and all Schemes/Strategies related to killing Pandora or keeping your own models alive and try to play for Vp's. If you try to kill her and her crew, your putting her in her element and she will make you suffer for each strike you take. I truly can not stress this enough, try to avoid having to fight her if you can. If you have Hold out, great! Perfect Scheme vs Pandora. Assassinate, not so much.

But if you have to deal with Pandora herself, only AE damage and Perdita are sure fire methods. AE's bypass Expose Fear as long as she is not the main target and if she is playing with Sorrows, they will want to stay near her. At the same time, don't be afraid to use your own models ad the starting point for AE's. Blow up a Witchling Stalker next to her or have Papa throw Dynamite at a Death Marshal near her etc. Just figure out ways to get them off on her.

Sonnia is a great enemy for Pandora and probably your best chance for fighting her. I say she is better then Perdita because Pandora can completely shut down Perdita rather easily and she has very little defense against her. But Sonnia has her Counter Magic which can throw a huge wrench in Pandora's plan. Plus her Blast spell with the trigger can cover a HUGE amount of ground. Just nail a nearby model and jump the blasts away and chain to Pandora. Anything that can AE or disrupt her spells can be a huge asset (think getting Stalkers close to her to pop their anti magic stuff).

Another riskier but still possibly successful strategy for trying to confront her crew is to bum rush them. Go in fast and hard (commonly the Family and their chaining companions) and hit her and her crew with everything you got. Pandora is not very tough once you get by her tricks and without her, her crew loses a lot of danger. So if you can prevent to many targets to stop/kill with all threatening to do a lot of damage, you'll see the player twitch because this is the exact scenario they practice to avoid. They want to take you appart piece by piece, going all in is going to throw them off their footing.

So just to summarize real fast..

Suggested Masters:

1. Sonnia
   
2. Perdita
   

Suggested Minions:

1. Family members
   
2. Stubborn Models
   
3. Witchling Stalkers
   
4. Long range
   
5. High damage
   
6. AE damage
   

Avoid:

1. Trickling in against her.
   
2. Low Wp models
   
3. Having very few models
   
4. Relying on 1 or 2 models to win for you (no lynch pins)
   
5. Getting Close to Sorrows
   
6. Teddy (he looks friendly but he will eat you)
   

Phew, I think I've gone on enough for now. Hope this helps and ask questions if you have any! Always willing to help even if its helping to beat my favorite master =D

Edited January 6, 2011 by karn987

[BenjaminBullet]

That may very well be the best answer I've ever got to a question on a forum...Thanks!

Can you explain how the antimagic field with the witchling stalkers works? so far thinking ill go with sonnia as well but havent looked at the model and havent got the book yet just been borrowing from friends when we play any specifics about her you could offer? Thanks again!

[karn987]

Well I sadly do not have the book with me at the moment. But if someone else does not get to this before late tonight, I will try to lay it out when I get home this evening.

[Peoples Champ]

Easy. Just take Lady J, the Governors Proxy totem and Nino.

Cast 'Blind justice' so Nino does not have to take WP tests to target Pandora and you will shoot her to bits very quickly. The totem can also cast it so if you had a guild astringer hidden behind a building you could double team her. :gurney:

[Natty]

Easy. Just take Lady J, the Governors Proxy totem and Nino.

Cast 'Blind justice' so Nino does not have to take WP tests to target Pandora and you will shoot her to bits very quickly. The totem can also cast it so if you had a guild astringer hidden behind a building you could double team her. :gurney:

Pandora can easily move the entire length of the board in single turns (incite/pacify and dementia on herself). A Pandora player is not going to let you pull off any Blind Justice combos very easily. One of the BIG BIG BIG flaws with playing Lady J against Pandora is her high weapon damage and self loathing. Pandora/Candy/Totem will make you hit yourself with that sword.

The worst Pandora can do to Perdita/Sonnia is ping them down slowly and make them fall back, but those two masters will come back in a turn or two to fight again. Lady J will destroy herself with her own sword very quickly.

Sure Blind Justice is good again Pandora, but if I was playing Pandora I would much rather play against a Lady J than either of the other two.

[Natty]

Oh, and much like Karn said, Stubborn is your friend, and Papa Loco is bad bad bad against Pandora. (Although not quite as bad as he is against Zoraida.)

I am thinking that the worst possible guild matchup for a Pandora player would be Sonnia and a bunch of stubborn family (maybe a few witchling stalkers in there for good measure).

Also like Karn said though, Pandora players can field pretty much anything and not just wp duels. I myself used to field almost entirely melee minions with Pandora for exactly the kind of reason that a stubborn crew with counterspell could easily destroy a wp based crew. That being said though, the family are still amazing and some of the best point cost models in the game even if you aren't relying on stubborn as a big defense bump.

[Natty]

...oh yeah, and let me reinforce the idea that you need to play for VP and not play to slaughter Pandora. This isn't Warhammer; you can win even if you haven't killed a single model.

[ericski]

...oh yeah, and let me reinforce the idea that you need to play for VP and not play to slaughter Pandora. This isn't Warhammer; you can win even if you haven't killed a single model.

Heck, you can win even if you don't have any models left...

[Odin1981]

I would also add in if it is a competitive game taking at least one if not 2 guild austringers base wp of 7 (9) if in los of proxy. (0) deliver orders is golden and the (2) action 18" raptor strike (no cover and los not required) with combat 7 make pandora burn stones quick (most importantly burning them for defense and not offensivly on you).

I often play against a pandora/teddy/kade/lilu/lilitu and sorrows crew. their are really only three models I try to focus on (dora,teddy, and lilitu). They problem I have is I have only once faced doppleganger but if she was in a list that would be a or both the austringers first priority.

If it were me with the models i own trying to take a list focused solely on pandora at 35ss I would bring Perdita, nino, santiago, samuel, and two austringers, and a govenor's proxy, with a 3stone cache. I would also like to add I would never willingly play this in a friendly game.

But I highly doubt if you were to operate well that if you were aggressive the chance that pandy would have to win even with like 15-18 pieces of terrain would maybe be like 15% chance at absolute best unless the cards just xrapped on you and the oppenent pulled god hands on like every turn from turn two on.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Odin1981

[Natty]

I would also add in if it is a competitive game taking at least one if not 2 guild austringers base wp of 7 (9) if in los of proxy. (0) deliver orders is golden and the (2) action 18" raptor strike (no cover and los not required) with combat 7 make pandora burn stones quick (most importantly burning them for defense and not offensivly on you).

I often play against a pandora/teddy/kade/lilu/lilitu and sorrows crew. their are really only three models I try to focus on (dora,teddy, and lilitu). They problem I have is I have only once faced doppleganger but if she was in a list that would be a or both the austringers first priority.

If it were me with the models i own trying to take a list focused solely on pandora at 35ss I would bring Perdita, nino, santiago, samuel, and two austringers, and a govenor's proxy, with a 3stone cache. I would also like to add I would never willingly play this in a friendly game.

But I highly doubt if you were to operate well that if you were aggressive the chance that pandy would have to win even with like 15-18 pieces of terrain would maybe be like 15% chance at absolute best unless the cards just xrapped on you and the oppenent pulled god hands on like every turn from turn two on.

Pandora doesn't need to survive your whole crew to survive the turn, she just needs to survive against 1 or 2 attacks because then she can push 4 inches after each one. Perdita is really the only thing that Pandora fears, and even Perdita can't really take her down in a single turn unless Pandora is playing poorly. If Pandora is standing right near Perdita, she deserves to die.

Pandora should be set up far enough away from Perdita that Perdita will need to spend an action or two setting up the shots, and then Pandora burns a soulstone for damage prevention.

That's why I say to always play for VP when fighting Pandora because even if you make a Pandora hunting crew, there is a good chance you will never catch her. So unless you have assassinate and HAVE to catch Pandora, I would make a crew based around not being afraid of Pandora and winning by VP. Have killing Pandora be second in your mind next to winning the game.

-----------------------

I've only ever played two games with my Pandora against a Perdita, won them both, and never once let Perdita shoot Pandora. Perdita is as vulnerable to Pandora's fall back as Pandora is to Perdita face shooting. That's why I say Sonnia is the best defense against Pandora. Sonnia doesn't fear Pandora at all and can really mess her up almost as well as Perdita can.

[Odin1981]

I really fail to see how her push does anything when the range of 18" from austringers that don't need los and ignore cover.

Austringers in los of proxy have wp of 9 dora only has 7wp granted she does have use soulstone but only has so many in a game. Her main problem is also having a pathetic defense of 2.

Austringers combat score of 7, samuel combat score of 8 (wp of 7with los to totem) with a minimum damage on her of 7( on a weak flip) with flaming bullets active, Nino wp of 8 with totem for wp duels range of 16" and combat 9 if in my sights active 7 if not. Samuel and nino being hunters so only hard cover is cover against them. Perdita wp 9 in los of totem combat 7 base 5 if bullet bending active. Samuel only paired combat 5 but if halve wounds paired seven and base wp of 8 when in los of totem 6 not in range.

I am pretty sure even with soulstones of 7 (max size of a scrap you would be burning a minimum of 5 just to keep her alive just in turn two and three which also doesn't even account to ones you would need for offense 2 stones is not alot) three of the models in the crew I suggested taking have a 18" or 16" range, same three models only have bash as a melee weapon those same three. Pandora's spell range is tops only 12" range on dementia all her good spells project emotion 10" and self loathing 8" trapped is also only 10". Also emotional trauma is only a 12" range the models that would be attacking her would have 4-6 " on trauma.

No sorrow will get close enough to anything in this crew to trigger anything before getting shot to death so your damage is only one wound for a enemy losing a wp duel to get to models that could actually hurt themselves with self loathing you would have to get in range of them somehow weathering the storm of austringers and nino.

The only model that might get close to the crew would be a insidious madness but they aren't sturdy and I highly doubt they would be around for more than 1/2 of a turn once in range.

Perdita, Santiago, and Sammuel would basically go minion hunting of anything that wondered close to the group. While the three ranged snipers go on doppleganger or pandora.

The strategy for the first 3 turns of the game a smart guild player would want to go with is simply just midfield control to prevent pandora from doing anything. On second half of the game go do your schemes/strategies (or when all threat priority's are dead.) .

Edited January 7, 2011 by Odin1981

[Ratty]

I really fail to see how her push does anything when the range of 18" from austringers that don't need los and ignore cover.

Austringers in los of proxy have wp of 9 dora only has 7wp granted she does have use soulstone but only has so many in a game. Her main problem is also having a pathetic defense of 2.

Austringers combat score of 7, samuel combat score of 8 (wp of 7with los to totem) with a minimum damage on her of 7( on a weak flip) with flaming bullets active, Nino wp of 8 with totem for wp duels range of 16" and combat 9 if in my sights active 7 if not. Samuel and nino being hunters so only hard cover is cover against them. Perdita wp 9 in los of totem combat 7 base 5 if bullet bending active. Samuel only paired combat 5 but if halve wounds paired seven and base wp of 8 when in los of totem 6 not in range.

I am pretty sure even with soulstones of 7 (max size of a scrap you would be burning a minimum of 5 just to keep her alive just in turn two and three which also doesn't even account to ones you would need for offense 2 stones is not alot) three of the models in the crew I suggested taking have a 18" or 16" range, same three models only have bash as a melee weapon those same three. Pandora's spell range is tops only 12" range on dementia all her good spells project emotion 10" and self loathing 8" trapped is also only 10". Also emotional trauma is only a 12" range the models that would be attacking her would have just

No sorrow will get close enough to anything in this crew to trigger anything before getting shot to death so your damage is only one wound for a enemy losing a wp duel to get to models that could actually hurt themselves with self loathing you would have to get in range of them somehow weathering the storm of austringers and nino.

The only model that might get close to the crew would be a insidious madness but they aren't sturdy and I highly doubt they would be around for more than 1/2 of a turn once in range.

Perdita, Santiago, and Sammuel would basically go minion hunting of anything that wondered close to the group. While the three ranged snipers go on doppleganger or pandora.

The strategy for the first 3 turns of the game a smart guild player would want to go with is simply just midfield control to prevent pandora from doing anything. On second half of the game go do your schemes/strategies (or when all threat priority's are dead.) .

She might have a Df on 2 but you have to win a Wp->Wp duel before you can actually try to beat her defence. And as others have said she can move a scary distance in a single turn. It's quite hard to control the mid-field when she can more or less avoid being in it at all.

I'm not in any way saying she's unbeatable, I have a fair amount of luck against her, however what I will say is the best way to deal with her is

1) Don't Panic. It's very easy to panic when she has just caused a couple of your expensive models to Fall back and is all up in your grill.

2) Keep an eye on the Goal. I find I do best when I don't deal with her at all and just try to avoid her.

3) Shut her down. She needs to be able to Cheat and use Soulstones, try to do stuff that will empty her hand and cause her to run out of SS. I also find Jack Daw works very well against her.

[Wodschow]

That was a very amusing read Odin

I'm sorry (no offense meant), but it sounds as if you either haven't played against Pandora or as if you've only played people that didn't master her just yet..

Edited January 7, 2011 by Wodschow

[Ratty]

TBH I've only really found one reliable way with Kirai of dealing with Pandora, which is after you have got rid of the sorrows attached to her,get Jack Daw exactly 6" away from her, then swing a Hanged into combat. If you can get a on all her Wp checks she becomes much less scary as she can't be as offensive when she can't rely on her Wp shield.

[Odin1981]

She is not good against the above crew I listed . The worst wp I have is even with hers. The models that would be targeting her all would have a higher wp trait than she does and target her outside of trauma range. Name any minion model neverborne could bring against that list that wouldn't die in one rapid fire from sammuel with flaming activated. If you aggresivley go after her she doesn't have the time to sculpt a great fall back hand.

You have at most 7 stones you could theortically have to burn threw most of them if you got close to the models that can damage themselves with flips to keep her alive or out of range of the three models focusing on her.

The only way I see her possibly not dying in the first three turns is staying away from the above listed crew. And then your not using your best model. Ok sounds good to me, or you take candy and coppelius in your crew and just spam healing flips on her but at the moment I'm unsure if coppelius can heal non nightmares I'll have to look that one up later.

Plus her free push is only when she wins a wp duel and when all but one of the models listed has a better wp stat then she does trust me she ain't gonna be winning more than about 1 in 3 duels unless she burns stones on the wp duels.

[Ratty]

Plus her free push is only when she wins a wp duel and when all but one of the models listed has a better wp stat then she does trust me she ain't gonna be winning more than about 1 in 3 duels unless she burns stones on the wp duels.

If she cast Dementia on herself, she gets a push everytime she takes an action.

[Stargazer]

You are assuming you can actually get near Pandora and hit her on your turns, as well as taking your whole crew against one model in isolation. To stop you from shooting he could put a Stitched together in front of her blocking your LOS to her.

Also your opponent can take Coppellius (who can heal non-nightmares btw) and if he hits you you're paralyzed. Full stop. along with the Insidious Madnesses which when you do fall back (I know you dont think it likely but it will happen!) will stop you from rallying.

There are a lot more things to go into but that gives you an idea, you need to look at her within her crew instead of looking at her on her own vs all of your crew.

Stargazer

[Wodschow]

I'll give you that there isn't many models in the game that'll stand to a Rapid Firing Samael.. However assuming that there's actually some terrain on the board Pandora could bring plenty of different models that could get to Samael before he'd even get a chance to shoot.

Oh.. And if you bring the Proxy then one Mental Anguish equals death for your models thanks to the rewording of her V2 card.

I'm not saying it's impossible to take her down, just that you obviously haven't experienced the horror that Pandora is able to unleash upon her foe - and thus I feel you're taking her a bit too lightly.

Edit: Also she can close in pretty fast as with her totem and Doppleganger she can pretty much always get two activations in a row and drag along any amount of Sorrows across the table should she so desire..

Edited January 7, 2011 by Wodschow

[Odin1981]

She can only activate once and a 18" range of austringers if they move up to 12" from your board edge can target anything that isn't in the back 6" of your deployment zone.

Stargazer austringers shoot her no matter what cover doesn't matter and los isn't needed. Also I'm not talking about using my whole crew on her just 2-3 models and 2 of those don't care about los or cover the other model is a hunter so only hard cover is cover against him.

The three upfront models sam, santiago, and perdita do more than enough damage to cap minion models.

Well I gotta go grab a bite to eat with the family, so I'll be back on later but I do say I really enjoy this disscussion. And hopefully at the tournament I'm playing in early feb i'll face a dora crew and make sure I write down the battle.

[tadaka]

I have to agree with rat and wod she is very very nasty in the right hands and the models you take don't stop her from being that way. She is a top ranked master for a reason. The only way I know of that can kill even close to reliably is lots of pulse attacks.

[tadaka]

[quote=Wodschow;194333

Oh.. And if you bring the Proxy then one Mental Anguish equals death for your models thanks to the rewording of her V2 card.

.

[Wodschow]

How does the version 2 card change her? I don;t understand how the wording change makes her any better please enlighten me.

Ca(MC) Mental Anguish: After defender loses a Wp Resist

Duel it immediately falls back and it counts as losing a

Morale Duel.

Watchful Eye: Friendly Guild models with LoS to this

model receive +2 Wp. Other Friendly Guild models

losing a Morale Duel while in LoS of this model are

killed.

Before it was just a fall back and didn't count as losing a Morale Duel so the Proxy was pretty much auto-include if you knew you'd be facing Pandora as there wasn't really any risk.

(god I love being able to copy-paste rules from the pdf's O_o)