Neverborn masters and crews you pick to counter a master

[Tiny]

So trying to be prepared for an upcoming tourney at the end of january I'd just like to share my thoughts on what i think i should be taking for each master I could come up against. Any feedback would be great!

Ortega:

Zoraida with either lots of aoe pulses like papa loco or pere, or with hooded rider (my least favourite option because he is immune to influence)

Lillith, with waldgeists to make use of the illusionary forests, obviously normal nephilim on top of that. Although i've been thinking a lelu/lillitu combo may be better with lure.

Lady J:

Dreamer, the hit and run of this master with lcb and the day dreams will have her number i think.

Sonnia:

Not too sure haven't played against her before but im thinking lillith will be the best way to go.

Lucius:

Honestly not a clue id guess dreamer or pandora, i'd probably end up using the dreamer.

Nicodem:

Dreamer hands down, no corpse counters from nightmares will ruin his day.

Seamus:

Dreamer again

McMourning:

Dreamer yet again

Kirai:

This one im not sure about either. I'm thinking pandora would probably be the best candidate because they halve damage anyway and just pinging away will be more effective. Not to mention screwing up the order they activate in will make it incredibly hard for her.

Colette:

I'm thinking pandora for the screwing up the order they activate in, not to mention self loathing will really hurt them with all the poison regular performers have.

Marcus:

I have 2 thoughts as to this one, do i pick lillith and just beat him at his own game. Or do i use pandora or the dreamer and just disrupt his crew, I think id be leaning towards teh dreamer for this match up purely to hit and run against him better than he can against me.

Rasputina:

I run demo games with rasputina against lilith and so far i've yet to see lilith win against her so i'm thinking either zoraida or pandora. Setting off some chain shatters with pandora will probably be the way to go.

Ramos:

Definately wont be using pandora against him. Probably Zoraida as teh spider latch on can counter lilith's high defense quite well and detonate spider gets around it anyway.

Pandora:

Im not sure what counters the never born masters best from neverborn so i think this may be where i need the most help. Anyway i think id use zoraida for her for the ability to hex off self loathings and also her "the box opens" is beautiful for obeys.

Lilith:

Pandora i think is the best counter for her or possibly zoraida because of the lack of immune to influence things in the crew.

Zoraida:

I'd have to say the dreamer is the best for her, being able to dump all those nightmares on her after she has activated before she can get away will be huge.

Dreamer:

I think lillith is the best way to get him, if he dumps all those nightmares on her she can really hurt them also transposition could be great here.

Leveticus:

Dreamer i think is the best option, all those abilities that affect living troops are perfect for nightmares, not to mention again no corpse counters from nightmares.

Teeth:

This is the crew i've had the most experience with and for me the toughest opponent is lillith with the ridiculously high defense so I think that's who id go also all those models means alot more blood counters.

Vikkies:

With all those magical weapons im thinking either pandora for self loathing spam will mess them up quite well or zoraida for obeys will be also quite effective.

Ophelia:

With the potential for huge damage this crew has i think the best bet is zoraida obey will be godlike in this one. I'd almost certainly use a doppleganger for a 3rd obey as well.

Thanks for making it this far. Anything you guys can see that is glaringly obvious as wrong?

[magicpockets]

You should never really know your opponents master before you pick yours, they're chosen at the same time. If you do know and choose in this way, it's kind of cheating.

Best bet is pick a Master you know really well and can adapt (for me Zoriada) and pick your crew based on the opponents Master and strategy.

Also, re Kirai, consider Zoraida - there's nothing more fun than hexing away the "cannot be controlled" talents on her main models and then obeying them

[Tiny]

Well im not expecting everyone at the tourney to have all masters. And surely people will favour one master so it wouldnt hurt to be a little be prepared in terms of using the right tool for the job.

Zoraida definately has more tricks than i've explored with her she seems to me to be one of those masters the better you know the rules and models the better she gets.

[Dolomyte]

Tough thread to respond to because unless I am specifically testing a list I prefer to build my crew based on the scenario. However, assuming the scenario is slaughter my ideal matchups would be as follows.

Ortega: Lilith is my top matchup. She is the melee variant of Perdita and with transposition can tear through the family quickly.

LCB / and Zoraida are ok, but I think perdita is a better master then they are, so she gives me fits with them.

I would never use pandora against perdita if I could avoid it.

Lady J: Lilith or LCB to alpha strike

Zoraida and Pandora as ok matchups, but blind justice can kill Pandora if you leave her exposed.

Sonnia: Lilith or LCB,

a good sonnia player will sit back and counterspell pandora. and I just dont like zoraida except for the nurse loco bomb.

Lucius: Pandora, Nothing he or his army can do to counter her

Lilith and LCB are second, Zoraida last.

Nicodem: I would agree that LCB is the best for him, he has the highest WP of neverborn and is the best swarm caster, so he can be annoying to deal with for Pandora.

Lilith second, Pandora and Zoraida third.

Seamus: Pandora. Again, not really someone who can counter her. He can lower her WP making her easier to hit, but he should die before that matters.

Lilith, then LCB and Z

McMourning: Definitely Pandora. No counter to her at all, low WP. He's dead before he got started.

Lilith and LCB Second, Z Third.

Kirai: Tough for everyone since there is not really a big magic damage dealer in the whole group. Pandora is best, but it's going to be a knock down dragout fight. plus Kirai is fast enough to kill the key compenents of your army.

Colette: Lilith, She's almost as fast as Colette and hits harder. Another drag out type fight.

Zoraida or LCB next. Pandora last. Colette's army is ridiciously high willpower and can deliver fast soulstone using attackers to pandora before she has a chance to react.

Marcus: You don't really need a master to beat marcus, but if you did, any of them would work.

Rasputina: Lilith is the best straight matchup, Zoraida's NurseLoco can destroy this army before it even starts, but other then that, tons of spells and blast damage will eat through the nightmares (assuming the alpha strike does not reach her, which it probably will not on a good player) Pandora is 50/50. Constructs are relatively high willpower and pandora's defensive abilities do nothing to stop blasts.

Ramos: I think Ramos is terrible. anyone can deal with him, though I agree counterspell is annoying for pandora. Lilith LCB or Zoraida would all have easy times of it though.

Pandora: I would either try Pandora against Pandora and hope my list / strategy / flips are better, or I would give Zoraida a shot. the Nurseloco bomb does ignore pandora's defense.

Lilith: Pandora, Lilith can't hit her and can't stop anything she does.

Zoraida: Lilith or LCB against the NurseLoco, Pandora against anything else.

Dreamer: Pandora. LCB can't attack her, and she would drop LCB and the other nightmares fairly easily. The dreamer would be tough to kill, but without LCB or the other nightmares, what can he really do?

Leveticus: Alot of people seem to think Leveticus is really tough, but I don't really see it. I think Lilith is fast enough to kill the waifs and him to prevent him from coming back. The dreamer offers no living targets. and he can't really do anything to Pandora would have a tough time with him, as would zoraida. but I think they are still winnable games.

Teeth: Gremlins can't hit lilith or pandora, so either of those are easy options. plus a point or two of damage per spell quickly adds up when you only have four wounds. Zoraida or LCB should fair fine as well

Vikkies: Any of the four should not have issues with the Victorias. Jack Daw (a staple in my pandora lists) however is very vulnerable to them, so play carefully.

Ophelia:Same as Somer.

[karn987]

In all honesty, Pandora against every single master but Perdita and Hamelin. Pandora can answer just about any other Master.

Against Perdita, use Dreamer or Lilith as they will rock her quick and hard. Against Hamelin.... Lilith probably, maybe Zoraida or Dreamer to.

Hmmm now that I think about it against Pandora I would probably use Zoraida and against Zoraida I would probably use the Dreamer.

[Natty]

the Nurseloco bomb does ignore pandora's defense.

Wasn't Papa Loco changed so that it is Rst: Df?

She might have 2 defense, but you can still blow a soulstone and probably have it miss you since Papa's cast total obviously wont be soulstoned and he has a low cast.

I wouldn't rely on that to hurt Pandora.

[oozeboss]

Interesting approach.

I'll be in the same tournament - Tiny is actually driving me the 275kms from here in Sydney to Canberra the day before the event - but I'm taking a completely different tack over the weekend.

I'm taking one master - The Dreamer - with minimal changes (a pair of Teddy's to sub in for a game or so), and I simply plan to slowly develop my ability to cope with whatever is on the other side using the same basic orbat.

I really love The Dreamer's fluff & am happy to leave the killer competitiveness to the serious young insects (that term being the name of an Adelaide band of the 80s) of the event while I expand my list of stories & themes. But if said competitive types proliferate to the level & intensity of what I walked away from in Warhammer, I'll be out of this hobby in next to no time.

Neither approach has the moral high ground, so no criticism is meant nor implied. This is simply a case of "different strokes for different folks" (to quote Sly of the Family Stone at Woodstock, in 1968).

Net result will be that that Tiny will come close to stomping over all he meets ...

:elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant:

... while I'll be close enough to threaten for the last place prize (without quite attaining those dizzying depths)!

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

:stupido3:

[deadboy]

The hag vs Perdita makes a lot of sense to me. Especially if they are dumb enough to start with a model you can obey from across the table to explode.

[Extinction Angel]

I pretty much agree on every count with Dolomyte.

I would say that the Viktorias can actually give a couple of our masters a run for their money. They have some yoyo tricks that can actually upset our own movement shenanigans.

Ronin can be difficult to kill in one activation and Freikorp are absolutely a pain in the butt against a Dreamer crew. Any Outcast player not running at least one or two Freikorp against Neverborn better have a good reason (Levi of course has a built-in reason).

And speaking of Freikorp, it appears Von Schil is missing from the list. I think Lilith is the best bet against the Freikorp. WP duels just won't cut it so that hurts everyone but hurts Lilith the least. I think LCB would do alright if you stayed away from things like Stiched, Insidious Madness, and Alps.

[Natty]

The hag vs Perdita makes a lot of sense to me. Especially if they are dumb enough to start with a model you can obey from across the table to explode.

I had a Perdita player learn that lesson when I did like 36 damage on my first activation. We decided to just restart the game and he put Papa Loco out of LoS.

[nilus]

I don't bring Papa Loco if I think I am going against Neverborn. That path leads to madness and death.

[Dolomyte]

Run your own papa loco as well, can you imagine how much that would suck for perdita. Getting bombed by her own loco and then bombed by your loco. Muy Loco.

[Tiny]

Thanks for the insight guys. I can definately see where you are all coming from.

LETS GO DEEPER.

Is there a certain minion you ~have~ to take against a master?

[Dolomyte]

Yes, absolutely, 100%.

The doppleganger. against everyone and with everyone. She is an auto-include, possibly the only in the game.

[deadboy]

Yes, absolutely, 100%.

The doppleganger. against everyone and with everyone. She is an auto-include, possibly the only in the game.

DEFINITELY in Hag crew. Almost absolutely in Pandora. Probably certainly in Dreamer crew above 30ss. But with lil she's 8ss of NOT nephilim. That is harsh.

[Tiny]

@deadboy, in your lillith crew do you only every take nephilim? My last game with her was against ortegas and i took a hooded rider to great affect, 4 earthquakes and a wing buffet means i could charge first turn.

[magicpockets]

Yes, absolutely, 100%.

The doppleganger. against everyone and with everyone. She is an auto-include, possibly the only in the game.

Amen to that

[oozeboss]

Originally Posted by Dolomyte

Yes, absolutely, 100%.

The doppleganger. against everyone and with everyone. She is an auto-include, possibly the only in the game.

DEFINITELY in Hag crew. Almost absolutely in Pandora. Probably certainly in Dreamer crew above 30ss. But with lil she's 8ss of NOT nephilim. That is harsh.

She is - with Coppelius - my favourite character & sculpt in the game. And highly usable with every Neverborn master.

But like you, I have (purely thematic) issues with my using Doppla with The Dreamer (not a Nightmare) or Lilith (not a Neph). And I do stress that this is in my crews - others can obviously make their own calls do as they will.

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

[Wodschow]

Eh, the Doppelganger synergizes the best with Pandora, okay with the other two ladies and not at all with the Dreamer.

Even with Pandora I wouldn't call her an auto-include. Niño is more of an auto-include for the Guild than the Doppel is for the Neverborn as a whole.

Although, the only auto-includes in the game are imho some of the totems.

[Dolomyte]

If she did nothing else, nothing else at all, but give my opponent a -neg flip to his initiative, I would take her with every master in the game. perhaps not at 25ss, but at 35 without a doubt. She probably does bring the least to the table with dreamer, but I still want to win initiative as soon as combat really begins. With Lilith, she can mimic fast and earthquake and help move the army forward.

[deadboy]

I like running Nekima with Lil so that leaves very little room for anything non neph. The extra blood she gives means you really want to max out your tots so you can grow them quick. The doppleganger doesn't help with that.

[deadboy]

Eh, the Doppelganger synergizes the best with Pandora, okay with the other two ladies and not at all with the Dreamer.

I think the extra Obey potential for the hag, plus the init thing, makes her autoinclude for Z.

[Wodschow]

Autoinclude is something you'd ALWAYS take, the Doppel isn't any such thing for me.

Don't get me wrong, it's solid and a very nice addition to most crews, but still far from what I'd consider autoinclude, you can make viable lists without it.

And.. I don't see myself ever taking it with the Dreamer..

[deadboy]

Ok, played the final game in my league last night. 50 ss Brawl with The Hag and the Dreamer vs. 60ss of Perdita and crew. The Doppleganger was DEFINITELY a must have. She let me go first in corner deployment. The hag went first. Threw the evil eye on Papa Loco and made him "Take ya with me!" Killed 2 austringers, Abuela, and Perdita's totem. Left the Convict Gunslinger and Nino with only 2 health. Left the Executioner and Peacebringer in similar straights. Papa was dead the next turn from poison allowing me to just mop up.

MVP was definitely Papa Loco but there was an able assist from the Doppleganger.

[karn987]

>.> That was not a smart move bringing Papa against Big Z. Your poor opponent ><