A step too far?

[Monkey]

This game is based around combos and tricks to get the advantage for your crew.

Out of all of the tricks the most powerful are out of action movment.

some tricks are

companion family and then x3 obay to get up to 30" threat on a charge or a blowing papa loco

lilith with wing buffet, carry, transpose to get 24"+ range charge from lilith

pandora.... nuff said.

soon its going to be gremlins with a 34" alpha stank.

Are they all a step too far?

Is this a game where 1st turn assasinations on masters is wanted?

How do masters with out movement tricks and limited range cope?

How do ranged casters cope with getting charged from well out side a range that you can shoot? (tina im looking at you)

This is not a rant of OMFG this is broken i am just hopeing for a clear debate about how it affects game play and peoples counters to the long range attacks.

[greenstuff_gav]

we've been finding the game to be more and more about dealing with Masters... sort of like Warmachine, deal with the Master and you've pretty much got the game in the bag

having not played anything from the new book yet i'm not sure how the new schemes affect this...

[Q'iq'el]

It would be one step too far if there were no defense. All you need to do is hire 2~3 body guards and keep them blocking LoS and preventing fly-over charges against the masters.

I suppose players who optimize their lists solely with the objectives and killines in mind may find it difficult to build sufficient defense around their master. More balanced lists, as usual, are answer to that, IMHO.

[Monkey]

It would be one step too far if there were no defense. All you need to do is hire 2~3 body guards and keep them blocking LoS and preventing fly-over charges against the masters.

ok so that will cover you from lilith, it will take 1/2 your crew and you wont be able to advace to take objectives but lilith wont beable to charge you.

How about for the 34" alpha stank? or the papa loco train ?

[gregdorf]

I have played a number of games and I have never had a first turn or even second turn master kill. Masters are very tough, and if you send in one model to try and get a quick kill on a master odds are very high it will be just your model that dies. I have seen some of those tricks you have listed done, and well they are not as effective as you may think, or would not work at all. Obey can only be cast once per turn by any one caster, and it has a limited range. I am not sure what pandora trick you are talking about but she has been errated so that she is not as mobile as once was.

[nilus]

I disagree. Your Master is a powerful unit but there are plenty of very powerful minions that can carry the game without them.

The main difference between Warmachine and Malifaux is that the latter really focuses on Strategies and Schemes. It doesn't matter if your Master dies as long as you pull of your Strategy and Schemes.

Also All these tricks to get across the board in one turn are not easy to pull off and easily shutdown if you see them coming. I don't think I have ever seen a turn one caster kill pulled off.

[Q'iq'el]

ok so that will cover you from lilith, it will take 1/2 your crew and you wont be able to advace to take objectives but lilith wont beable to charge you.

How about for the 34" alpha stank? or the papa loco train ?

It is the other way than you're painting it, I think.

A crew that tries to pull out such a gimmick invests heavily into the synergies needed to pull it out. If it fails, they are seriously weakened and they do not have all kinds of models needed for all the objectives.

To defend from it you need to make small sacrifice in terms of balance - bring a good tough bodyguard or two, bring 2~3 fast scouts etc. Not only what works for the mission at hand, but also something more universally balanced.

Then deploy right. Especially with the right kind of Terrain. Papa Loco train may be deadly, but he isn't pushed with these obeys. Even single small model can stop the train at the safe distance with a single disengaging strike.

As for the alpha strikes, from my experience opening with them is rather counter productive. If you have enemy cornered and do a companion activation, you can finish off several crucial models. But if you spend it on moving close to opponent in turn 1, all you get is opponent who has entire second part of the activation phase to pick out models that willingly walked into his range.

Not saying those are universal counters, but it still is possible to adapt to your opponents. The crew composition and deployment is slightly more important than in Book 1. And the terrain - the table should be positively cluttered (after all the Book recommends 18~36 pieces of terrain on a 3x3 table!)

[Monkey]

Also All these tricks to get across the board in one turn are not easy to pull off

They are not that hard to pull off as you just have to set up right and play though the steps. a few 10s in your hand and you are set with the 3x cast obay and then boom you cant stop it and its all in one activation. the damage may not drop a caster but it can gut a crew that needs to be clumped up for abilitys like the SPA and hoffman

Masters are tough but some have def 2-3 and not that many wounds 2-3 good hits and you are dead or shelling out much needed SS to keep alive on the first turn.

Pandora is not as mobile as she once was but once she starts going shes dam quick and can get in hit you and get out in one activation and be set up to go again next turn.

im seeing more and more movement tricks comeing in to the game and an opponant that can be any where on the table in 1 turn is hard to deal with.

[nilus]

They are not that hard to pull off as you just have to set up right and play though the steps. a few 10s in your hand and you are set with the 3x cast obay and then boom you cant stop it and its all in one activation..

Obey requires a mask and only the Totem has that built in. So you need 2 high card with a specific suit and one other high card. In your initial draw that's hard to pull off.

[Monkey]

Obey requires a mask and only the Totem has that built in. So you need 2 high card with a specific suit and one other high card. In your initial draw that's hard to pull off.

Stick in 2 SS and it drops the cards that you need.

I realy am not trying to say that alpha strikes and movment tricks are the be all and end all of tactics in the game and that alpha strikes are the sure fire win button. They are not but the risk that your opponant CAN pull them off any turn and cripple your forces is a neet ability that can cause problems.

any how keep the comments coming they have been great sofar.

[AntiZombie]

i find that when a opponent really tries to kill my master he either ends up losing ( because he forgot the stratagy) or he puts himself into a position that ends him. It usually takes quite a force of nature to take out a master if you have to engage and destroy them, it also usually cripples your force or puts you into a position that means your gonna get hit REALLY hard the next turn. I have had my master die on multiple occasions and that was the only reason i won, my opponent focused on my master so my minions got to do whatever they wanted.

[LoboStele]

Some forces though, you really just have to focus on taking out the master, or you'll eventually be overwhelmed. Kirai is like that, and so can others like Levi, Ramos, and other Summoners (mainly the Rezzers though, obviously).

[Iamwyrd]

I have played a number of games and I have never had a first turn or even second turn master kill. Masters are very tough, and if you send in one model to try and get a quick kill on a master odds are very high it will be just your model that dies. I have seen some of those tricks you have listed done, and well they are not as effective as you may think, or would not work at all. Obey can only be cast once per turn by any one caster, and it has a limited range. I am not sure what pandora trick you are talking about but she has been errated so that she is not as mobile as once was.

I on the other hand have had a turn two master kill. I was playing kirai and my opponent was playing raspy. He set up directly across from me, I summoned ikiyro 12" away. He moved raspy twice and tried to December's curse and missed. I activated ikiryo and called spirits moved all the spirits up. Then moved ikiryo placing her 17" away from kirai. Turn two activated kirai, into the spirit wielded up to the ikiryo. Abosrbed it, summoned it 12" again absorbed and reactivated the ikiryo. So the ikiryo struck raspy twice and then three more times when it reactivated. I just so happened to flip red joker for damage on one strike but he prevented 3 of it. So the red joker helped alot. But even if I didn't I did 18 dmg from all five strikes. Not including the red joker reflip. So it is possible.

[Punchausen]

Yeah, I do find it a bit... 'odd' that you can make someone teleport across the map faster than a speeding bullet, even if the odds are unlikely.

I know this isn't a very realistic game, but the mechanics are based on 'real world' physics. I can picture daemons flying, ninja gunslingers dodging bullets, zombies rising from the grave... but I don't see how a Jedi Mind trick can make you into the Flash just because you've been asked twice...

[AvatarForm]

MtM - you have never used your Force Speed, obviously...

[Q'iq'el]

Yeah, I do find it a bit... 'odd' that you can make someone teleport across the map faster than a speeding bullet, even if the odds are unlikely.

I know this isn't a very realistic game, but the mechanics are based on 'real world' physics. I can picture daemons flying, ninja gunslingers dodging bullets, zombies rising from the grave... but I don't see how a Jedi Mind trick can make you into the Flash just because you've been asked twice...

I think you need to read deeper into the fluff.

It's a magic world where spirits walk through walls, wizard-shooters bent reality around bullets they shoot and ancient forces battle using people like pawns.

It's anything but based on "real world" physics. If anything, some of the human characters haven't realized that yet, but that's it.

[Berman]

I've pulled off first round master kills only one game. Vs Nicodem with a mature. He charged a samuri punk put way forward triggered toss asside then hit nicodem. Pulled a red joker for damage followed by a severe.

That felt like pure luck to me. A.) 13 tome in my hand, and b.) lucky damage flip.

I've never seen some of those chained out abilitied for movement, but you can set up for it. Protect your master when they are setting themselves up to do it. Then just hammer the offending model in the teeth. Lilith that far out of position on a charge is just going to die. I mean it takes a number of good cards to get in position. Then to attack. While you only need to defend well once, maybe twice.

Feels like card advantage is on your side.

[Hatchethead]

That felt like pure luck to me. A.) 13 tome in my hand, and b.) lucky damage flip.

Similar to how I lost my Tomb King during a memorable game of Warhammer Fantasy; lucky stone thrower scatter, center template, failed "Look Out Sir!", d6 roll of 6 for damage.

Pure (bad) luck. Almost funny, but doesn't happen too often.

[Lorenz]

I have noticed this is a brutal game and models die fast and retaliation is swift

making moves so far across the table in one turn means you leave a line of models the enemy can pick off one by one and most importantly you leave your heavy hitter on the wrong side of enemy lines with all your models to far away to help. if your opponent is wise they will take advantage and... well this game is brutal

[Justin]

we've been finding the game to be more and more about dealing with Masters... sort of like Warmachine, deal with the Master and you've pretty much got the game in the bag

having not played anything from the new book yet i'm not sure how the new schemes affect this...

I think that the key to this phenomenon is soulstones.

Soulstones are a hugely powerful resource and, when your master is dead, you have nothing else that can use them. So this makes bum rushing the master a perfectly viable tactic.

I know, I know, focus on your strategy and schemes. But it turns out those are very easy to accomplish when the other guy is dead.

However, book 2 added a number of models who can use soulstones, giving you access to that incredibly powerful potetnial even if your master dies. So this, I think, is a huge improvement.

[AvatarForm]

I know, I know, focus on your strategy and schemes. But it turns out those are very easy to accomplish when the other guy is dead.

To sig or not to sig...

[redarkham]

mmmmm quite so

[Q'iq'el]

I know, I know, focus on your strategy and schemes. But it turns out those are very easy to accomplish when the other guy is dead.

There's also the reverse of the coin - it's very easy to accomplish your strategy and schemes after you've broken the teeth of an alpha-strike crew banking everything on killing your master.

[Justin]

There's also the reverse of the coin - it's very easy to accomplish your strategy and schemes after you've broken the teeth of an alpha-strike crew banking everything on killing your master.

So, in other words: wipe your opponent = win.

Try to wipe your opponent and fail = lose.

Yeah...that adds up.

[Q'iq'el]

So, in other words: wipe your opponent = win.

Try to wipe your opponent and fail = lose.

Yeah...that adds up.

For a balanced crew build around supporting each other, rather than launching big-gamble strikes early on, there's always plan B and a chance at some damage control. Not so much for a crew that invests large chunk of the Soulstone pool into some über opening.

On the top of that in the turn 1~2 the side forced to defend early always has an advantage. There are few models that can move fast enough, there's no time to prepare a coordinated attack and the attacker relies on some sort of launching synergy to get his heavy hitter on target. Quite probably, that involves burning through the control hand and perhaps even using a soulstone or two.

The defender has his full hand, untouched soulstone pool, local advantage in numbers and gets what amounts to a free move - he can deploy already in a defensive formation, exactly where and how he wants to fight.

The only challenge here is to see it coming. That's why rushes work on newbies, but hardly ever on experienced players. And that's also why they aren't really OTT, unless someone comes up with a model that can dispatch whole crew in one go.