Shredded by Lilith

[MrKittens]

Hey all, first post on these here forums. Been poking about a bit, and this seems like a good community.

I had my first game of Malifaux a while back, and I've been tentative to try again. I was running what I thought was a decent Guild list, with Perdita, Nino, Francisco, and Santiago, while Perdita's little Nephilim pal tagged along (I'd been planning on getting a box set, so I thought I'd just start with proxying what I would likely have). I thought it was a decent list. My girlfriend was running Lilith and a mature Nephilim. There were other models in her list, but they really don't matter, here.

She makes sure to put down enough terrain to make Nino nearly incapable of setting up shots, and Lilith edges forward. When the time is right to strike, she companions the mature Neph, and uses transposition to switch it and Santiago. It charges Francisco, and he melts. Perdita unloads on the thing, even getting some Obeys from her totem, but it doesn't go down. After that, Santiago vaporizes next to Lilith and whatever else she had in her list. It was all over but for the screaming after that.

I've been understandably cautious about playing another game after that... with a spell like transposition, it seems like a shooting list doesn't work; like, at all. You'd need to run nothing but the hardiest of characters. So, I have to ask, folks, is my experience normal? Did we miss a rule? What should I do instead? I realize, now, that Santiago is a bullet-tank, and not a melee-tank; an executioner would've suited me better.

Hopefully, I can simply switch Santi for an executioner, and the list'll work out ok. We'll see. Any thoughts?

[gunpowder saint]

now we do understand you let her win right? lol

Anyway, Big Momma, and Pappa [[.Lilith and the Mature Neph.]] is the Bane of any Guild List except with the possible exception of Lady J. But here's a few things I learned about Perdita.

Obey: I know it's VERY tempting to watch the Mature Nephilim tear a terror tot in half, but there are a few better uses. For example, you can use it to give your allies a free action. Say you plan this out, Nino has too much terrain blocking him from getting a shot, but if he double walks he can get LoS, so he does. Perdita then casts obey on Nino and he takes the shot, hopefully you have a few masks in your hand to keep his itchy trigger finger satisfied.

PaPa Loco: not many people run him because he get's shot up alot, or killed first, but ya know what? That's fine! that's his job is to die, and hopefully take out a big model while he leaves. When going against an opponent like Lilith who has NO ranged attacks of Any Kind, PaPa is perfect, run in and Take Them With YA! and when she retaliates BOOM! that's 11 Dmg all together. Anyone within three inches lol

Death Marshals: they're not Just Lady J's friends, they any guild players friend. Hard to Wound 1, decent Df, these guys are as close to 'hardy' as a guild player can get for the cost. 4 soul stones and if you're worried about that young growing up to mature throw him in the box.

Overall, Lilith is a pain in the ass, just flat out. She's a melee monster and the mature is just as bad, but if you can deny her blood counters, or Kill Big Daddy it will shaft the army pretty good. but that's what I've learned.

Welcome to the Forum by the way;

Keep your stick on the ice,

we're all in this together!

Edited August 18, 2010 by gunpowder saint

[hippieshopper]

I'm just here to second what my good friend here has said.

Just send Papa to the front line to take them out, he's pretty much a kamikaze fighter anyways because any player worth their salt will perforate him as soon as possible. Since Lillith is a brawler with no real range, that's perfect for a Take Ya With Me and a BOOM!

Yeah, and if you can pine box the tater tots before they grow, you've just saved yourself a lot of trouble. I guess just denying her army the blood in the first place isn't a bad idea either.

Also, even if your ladyfriend placed the terrain to her advantage, Perdita can bend the bullets around it...albeit at a -3CB but still, you can cheat your way out of that.

And welcome to the forums! As a fellow newbie here as well, I'd like to say that the people here are pretty friendly.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I play i lot of Lilith so i know her weaknesses

First of all the mature and verry low defence, so getting a servre is much easier, the best model to use aganst a mature is bishop, by using adapted fighter, so you can trigger knock aside, Charge the mature, throw him to one side, so you charge him again, hit him with melee expert and and throw him to one side so he's outside his melee range, and he when charges you, cheat high, so you can jump aside out of his melee. i forget all of the tricks with bishop, but they work well aganst the mature, and attack lilith's willpower not her defence, it's much easier

[Lucidicide]

Don't let her put up so much terrain that it wrecks your list. And since the table it set up before lists are chosen, IF there is way too much terrain, take fewer shooters. If you have a ranged list, you need to shoot at range. If your opponent makes this nearly impossible with terrain, you need to use different crew members.

There are a number of suggestions above. The Executioner is good in melee, and so is the Peacekeeper. Witchling Stalkers aren't bad, can resist the Transposition pretty well, and if they are killed in melee (which is really all you'll be seeing), they explode and do damage. They can provide a nice screen for the things you want to charge/shoot as opposed to be charge.

Anyway, I think the primary factor is: don't let you opponent dictate the entire table, balance is important. If you end up stuck with bad terrain... well, use different models. Perdita can make it even in thick terrain, but people like Nino? Wasted.

Hope that helps.

[Sliver Chocobo]

i forgot

The Convict gunslinger, also a nightmare whenever i playaganst one

[paradox]

All my games vs Lilith have been with Justice, So I can't say much other than what's already been said. With Perdita, it seems like Papa Loco running meatshield/interference is a no-brainer.

If you get hit by the transpose trick, you ought to be able to down the neph between Perdita and Nino.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Here's an outside the box tactic that works well for my wife. Make Perdita the most tempting target; put her forward center and use bullet bending to force confrontation.

Here's the twist, make sure she's far enough away to require a walk followed by a charge to hit, so it takes Lillith's whole activation to get one attack. It's CB 7 vs. Df 8 so even odds of hitting. If the initial flip goes you're way then just match whatever she does, cheat if on of she cheats spend a ss if she spends a ss.

She may get a hit in but you'll survive and you have a ton of firepower focused on Perdita just unload since you can cheat low cards if you're going to hit Perdita and Perdita herself has a Cb 7 and her ranged attack in melee.

[Sliver Chocobo]

that's 13' what's the range on Perdita?

[Wodschow]

that's 13' what's the range on Perdita?

That would depend on the terrain, Lilith can't charge without LoS, Perdita can fire without LoS, so if there's 8~10" between them and no LoS it'd still work like Vecnas Hand said.

@Vecna:

Personally I think luring like that depends a bit too much on the enemy to make bad decisions without necesssarily being forced into doing so.

Also.. I'm not sure I'd play it like that if the Lilith player happens to have the Red Joker then.. Well it doesn't require all that much luck for Lilith to acquire another drop of blood to feed her brood with.

As for the thread in general. Most Ortegas have crazy Wp when defending, Liliths Transposition can be resisted with Wp.. Liliths cast is low. Cheat in a card and you suddenly avoided to be locked in combat for two of your characters.. Well worth it imo.

[chaosobscuros]

That would depend on the terrain, Lilith can't charge without LoS, Perdita can fire without LoS, so if there's 8~10" between them and no LoS it'd still work like Vecnas Hand said.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Perdita's Bullet Bending now only ignores cover, it does not allow her to shoot without LOS.

[Wodschow]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Perdita's Bullet Bending now only ignores cover, it does not allow her to shoot without LOS.

Hmm.. I'm afraid you might be right on that one..

[Epic Jimbo]

As a hardcore Liltih player, I realize what it takes to take her down. I have seen Samael put a hurting on a Mature Neph before the thing could ever get close. But as a Lilith player, I know full and well that ranged models are my worst nightmare (thus extra terrain, hooray!). The Terror Tots are squishy but if they get a chance to grow, watch out. A lot of posts have been made about Lilith and the MN, but don't forget the Young Nephs. I have seen a pair of those do more hurt on an enemy crew than any Mature could muster. So, as they say, If the terrain allows, take as much heavy ranged as possible, and USE them. If not, the Nephilims are glass cannons, they usually rely on first blood to do their best, so try to take your heavy melee close enough to hit first and hard. And pick off those tots if you can!

[Kharnac]

Obey: I know it's VERY tempting to watch the Mature Nephilim tear a terror tot in half, but there are a few better uses. For example, you can use it to give your allies a free action. Say you plan this out, Nino has too much terrain blocking him from getting a shot, but if he double walks he can get LoS, so he does. Perdita then casts obey on Nino and he takes the shot, hopefully you have a few masks in your hand to keep his itchy trigger finger satisfied.

if you're going to make this play with a family activation, use the two obeys to move Nino, and actually activate him last - if you do not do it this way, you won't be able to get In My Sights for combat 9 - which is important simply for hitting high def models like Lilly, or for getting the plusflips against low def/high wounds models like the mature to increase the chances of trigger happy.

[n0valoco]

Doesn't Lillith ignore terrain for LOS?

[TimeLapse]

Hi Perdita is my main girl and I would like to say that I play her well.

Okay always remember that when perdita has SS on her she is the hardest thing in the world to hit with an attack.. So always keep a good supply of SS at lest 5 if not more.

Okay So for Terrain make sure you are following the rules on page 91. Also it says that each Terrain piece should be 4 inches between each other.

Now for models

Perdita is a must, Her totem and Nino come next.

Now a lot of people like Santiago and fransisco but they are weaker then they seem, and they need to be played just right or there die before they get into battle, so I would add Fransisco but drop Sandiago. But also remember that Lilith Transposition is a willpower test so the family members all become WP 8 in defense, and Perdita is immune to it.

The Exactuioner is good, you can obay him into combat and DF triggers like Lilith’s Disappear doesn’t work vs him.

VS Lilith at 35SS this is what I would run

Perdita

Her totem 2

Nino 7

Exey 7

Fransico 5

Witchling stalker 4

Witchling stalker 4

That’s what I would play around with.

Perdita use of obey is the key of her list. Now if you have shooting lanes use Obey on Nino to shoot all he can at what ever he can see.

If the shooting option is not there use obey on the exey to get him into combat faster and to allow him more swings.

If Liliths DF is an issue kill your own Witchling stalkers to have them blow up and damage her, also use papa loco. If you obey Papa loco twice he will have a 15-21 inch threat range depending on wether you can get some charges off do the take you all with me if you can do it without dieing if you cant use nino to kill him and give more wounds to Lilith that she cant defend.

I hope this helps

-Andrew

[TimeLapse]

Also if you activate the family right you can obey papa forward and then activate next before any opponents get a chance to run away..

Also the new family member the mother has a 3rd obey and thats just awesome also she can make the exacutioner a family member so its all good.

-Andrew

[kbdrand]

Consider running the Governor's Proxy for the extra WP to resist those transpositions. The only potential downside would be if Lilith uses a soulstone to bump the total, then you could be screwed.

[Wodschow]

Consider running the Governor's Proxy for the extra WP to resist those transpositions. The only potential downside would be if Lilith uses a soulstone to bump the total, then you could be screwed.

There's a difference between Wp resist duels and Morale duels..

There's no downside to using the Proxy in the scenario you just described.

[kbdrand]

There's a difference between Wp resist duels and Morale duels..

There's no downside to using the Proxy in the scenario you just described.

I don't have the card in front of me so I was not sure. If you only lose a model if it is a morale duel then that is awesome. I will always take him against Neverborn in that case.

[sanj]

I just had my third game of Malifaux, first time against Lilith and starter crew vs Lady Justice's starter crew.

-Lady Justice failed a charge at Lilith through rough terrain.

-Lilith retaliated by wailing on LJ and using companion on a mature Nephillim to charge in with him too.

-I had to use all my soulstones just to survive.

-Next round I killed the Nephillim with LJ (thinking my opponent would just use his soultstones to make me miss Lilith) and he then finished off LJ with Lilith.

-After that I kept putting odd bits of damage on Lilith by using judged (to bypass her defence).

-The death marshalls killed off the terror tots but once Lilith caught the judge I just couldn't hit her with the marshalls and she slowly worked her way through the rest of my crew.

I think things would have been very different if I hadn't committed LJ so early to a risky charge.

Edited August 25, 2010 by sanj

[AvatarForm]

I will be painting Perdita's crew this month as part of a painting challenge on WargamerAU... you have now given me some serious though to changing my lists. Luckily, the majority of the additional minis are already in my possession due to other starters:boom:

[Ciaran]

I go with the Ortega boxed family for my Perdita vs. Lillith scraps. I haven't encountered most of what y'all are running into as negatives. I force my opponent to come to me (depending on the scenario) and obey Nino into place with both Perdita (if I have the card) and her totem (which I find to be easier), sometimes burning a soulstone there to ensure I get off the critical casts.

Perdita and Nino end up being my killers in this. Papa Loco wears a couple of models down, Francisco and Santiago slow everyone down, and often do damage (usually the survivor when one gets killed) to keep my opponent off guard.

[AvatarForm]

Since book 2 and the errata'd Bullet Bending... how would the above strats differ?

Also, noone has taken Waldgeist into account for terrain. I have seen 2 waldgeist effectively box in crews and shepherd them around using forests.