Beating Lilith?

[Blank]

So me and my girlfriend decided to play a 1 on 1 game last night. I used Marcus and she chose Lilith. I was slaughtered by turn 5. It was horrible.

I used Marcus' box set plus a December Acolyte.

She used Lilith, 3 Terror Tots, Teddy, and Mature Nephilim.

My Acolyte was destroyed within minutes as both Teddy and Mature came to do the job on him. On the other side of the board, I had forgotten that Lilith had Whirlwind and surrounded her with Cerberus, Myranda, and Marcus. After throwing 5 attacks at her on turn two, not a single one hit and it just went downhill from there. The Cerberus and Marcus never stood a chance. Oh and did I mention I only managed to kill one Terror Tot and damage another?

So my question to you all is, how do you beat Lilith? I'd like to know how to beat her with Marcus (if that's even possible with her high Df) but if you have any other Master/Minion suggestions, I'll happily accept those as well. Maybe I just need some general help in using Marcus.

Much appreciated.

[Aldyhide]

So me and my girlfriend decided to play a 1 on 1 game last night. I used Marcus and she chose Lilith. I was slaughtered by turn 5. It was horrible.

I used Marcus' box set plus a December Acolyte.

She used Lilith, 3 Terror Tots, Teddy, and Mature Nephilim.

My Acolyte was destroyed within minutes as both Teddy and Mature came to do the job on him. On the other side of the board, I had forgotten that Lilith had Whirlwind and surrounded her with Cerberus, Myranda, and Marcus. After throwing 5 attacks at her on turn two, not a single one hit and it just went downhill from there. The Cerberus and Marcus never stood a chance. Oh and did I mention I only managed to kill one Terror Tot and damage another?

So my question to you all is, how do you beat Lilith? I'd like to know how to beat her with Marcus (if that's even possible with her high Df) but if you have any other Master/Minion suggestions, I'll happily accept those as well. Maybe I just need some general help in using Marcus.

Much appreciated.

Remember, VP is what decides who wins the game, not killing other models. (Unless you have slaughter, but then you're screwed anyway.)

So, as long as you avoid Lilith and focus on your schemes. you'll be pretty much set. Look out for transposition, and if you absolutely HAVE to go through Lilith, try using attacks or spells that don't let her use that Df of hers. A good one is the cerberus' roar. Since its Rst: Wp, and though Lilith's Wp is 6, it is still beatable.

Also, you can turn Myranda into the Cerberus', or copy roar from it and keep Myranda's Good Ca of 6(tomes).

[goblyn13]

Silurids and Waldgeists, the waldgeist is relatively fast and it has armor, add to that the forest moving capability of the Waldgeist.

Remember jusidcous use of Alpha, and you can make her own people go against her and if you use Alpha you can rob her of being able to activate them.

to make them beasts you can use the (0) feral or you can use the his cb trigger and Serpent strike to hit them for your second (0) after casting wild heart

[Ciaran]

I'm not so sure about how it would work with Marcus. Just to give you some hope though, I've beaten Lilith multiple times with Zoraida. At one point both Lilith AND a mature nephilim where in hand to hand combat with Z. Shockingly enough the cougar ended up killing Lilith.

Marcus has access to some really tough models, and I think it's possible for you to take the Mother of Monsters down, HARD.

[Q'iq'el]

Lilith is very strong in defense, but average in Will Power - casters who use Rst:WP spells easily overcome her and she has to start burning through SS to stay up.

I don't remember Marcus' team stats right now, but if you can throw Rst:WP spells at her, do it.

Her crew is generally hard-hitting, but weak both in Df and Wp - if you *have* to kill something, start with Mature Nephilim, Teddy and such.

As to Waldgeist, they are natural supplement to any Lilith team. Sure, Marcus can take them, but if you play with your girlfriend and she gets to choose her team, the moment you add Waldgeists to the pool, you may be sure she'll grab them. ;-)

[Berman]

Go for the tots early so they can't grow. Focus fire and use your speed to seperate her forces. They are melee units. So if you can take some punce strikes with your faster units on seperated/targets of opprotunity that should help.

[Ropetus]

Silurids and Waldgeists, nuff said. They're perfect for facing Lilith's crew.

Silurids can match or even win them in the speed department and hit very hard (they chop those Tots in pieces in no time). In addition they are immune to Diving Charge (cannot ignore LoS when targeting them). As a bonus, they are Neverborn and thus immune to Black Blood.

Waldgeists are tougher (Armor 2) although less speedy. However, they can counter that annoying Illusionary forest of Lilithby moving it somewhere else. Also, immune to Black Blood like Silurids. If Lilith uses these against you use Stare Down every turn to make their life miserable. You won't face them a second time ;P.

Lilith's weak point is her Wp6. Try targeting it with Wp effects. Either Alpha or Howl + Roar. That should make her burn those Soulstones like mad. Wthout them, she's much easier to hit in melee as well. If you get either of those to work, it should make the game much easier.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

Well, hitting her in melee remains problematic even if she spends all the stones. If you can disable her with WP checks, do it and deal with her crew. If you can damage her with some Rst:WP hits, by all means do it. But even if she spends her Soulstones, you still need to be sure of your control hand to engage her in melee.

With her fast, she can go defensive stance and still charge someone - with Df8 that means you need to burn soulstones to hit her reliably even if she has none. If you miss but once, you effectively debuff your own attacks via her defensive trigger. And if she puts up her Aura, she'll debuff the attacker Df, which is really painful to some crews (esp. the ones where models hover on lower tier Df of 3~5, like Marcus' Beasts).

As to Silurid and Waldgeist, I still think Waldgeist are problematic against Lilith in the context of OP's fights.

Silurids are decent models to have no matter who you face - so-so fighters, but they bring speed, avoidance and are somewhat decent in packs. Great for capturing objectives.

However I wouldn't push them as a solution against Lilith. You won't attack her in packs because of the whirling attack and they are not much faster than Lilith's own minions. Without Fly won't be able to always chase them down and aquatic features are generally rare, unless you have some great Bayou table. If attacked by Nephilim they will fare just as bad as a Nephilim attacked by them would (poor defense, so-so attacks on both sides)

Silurid's Silent is not much help against Nephilim though, Ropetus. Granted, they cannot charge you, but that's just a loss of to damage - no biggie, considering Silurid are only so-so fighters. On the contrary, a Young or a Mature Nephilim may prefer to go Defensive Stance, fly close to a Silurid and then use the Melee Expert to strike it (or even just fly near and strike it two times), than to charge directly, even when a charge is possible.

Silurid on the other hand are still unable to charge Nephilim hiding out of LoS, so all the Silent buys them is the removal of on damage flip.

As to the Waldgeist, the Uproot's range is really short. First you have to waste AP to get the Waldgeist within 2" of her forest and then she'll just move the forest away herself. Preferably in a place where Waldgeist has to move to touch it. Especially if there's a Cherub on the table and can recast the forest at will.

If the table has no other forest, Lilith will always be able to make sure it won't get into hers, as she or her Cherub can simply recast it from under the beast.

I'm not saying Waldgeist can't move the forest out of the way to expose Lilith to a spell or two, but it's a waste of AP if Lillith or her Cherub simply moves it back in place as soon as the Waldgeist's activation ends.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Ropetus]

Even a simple Feral + Stare Down (easy to make it work) should make Lilith much more manageable in melee. With all round her high Df is much easier to manage and she can't attack effectively either. Add in Alpha and watch the Soulstones flying around. If she uses Defensive Stance you have already succeeded in shutting down most of her mobility and offense. Just ignore her on the turn she does that.

Also, Hoarcats should work nicely against her Crew too. They're Harmless and most of them have only average Wp (beware of the mature though!). They can also quite easily Devour the Young Nephilim.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

She has Disappear to knock your Cb 2 points down and Alluring debuffing everyone's Df by 2 is just as effective means to deal with buffs/debuffs.

If she uses Defensive Stance, unlike other models, she can still charge or do her whirling attack - granted, she won't be able to use both Defensive Stance and Alluring (unless she opts for single Strike, but that would be a waste of activation I think), but she can chose if she wants to be defensive of offensive and still stay very good at it.

I'm not saying she can't die in melee, but you have to bring a solid melee fighter to deal with her - simply burning her Soul Stones alone is not going to do it.

From my experience, Punk Zombies can deal with her relatively easily, once she's out of Soul Stones. But a Punk Zombie is Cb7, or even Cb9 if Bolstered, has Paired Katanas as weapons ( to hit) and can Flurry for 3 strikes and will trigger Rot on the top of that.

Marcus doesn't bring anything like that to the table if he sticks to beasts alone (even with Waldgeists and Silurids). Rather than that, bring some other Arcanist models. Joss and Steamborg Executioner look like they do have fighting power to tackle her, for example.

And Lilith can easily foil Feral/Stare down combo - just drop the forest between her and Marcus or place one of the large-base models in her crew (not uncommon to halve more than half of the models on the 40mm+ bases). The debuff works only if Marcus has LoS to her and since he has to cast it first for it to have any meaning, he'll want to activate before her - she'll always be able to do it. If not, there's the Cherub or maybe even the Doppelganger to do it for her.

Besides, is not that bad for her as far as it comes to melee. If she has to go defensive and choses the Defensive Stance, she'll still be defending with , so she draws better card and can cheat on the top of Df8 and a possible -2Cb debuff for the attacker. And as I said, going Defensive hardly impedes her as much as other models.

If she's attacking, the may affect her hitting, but if she goes for Alluring, Marcus' beasts will be defending at df3 or less, so it won't be that hard for her to hit anyway. After that it's damage flip from the Great sword (so even if she's just at 1~5 difference she can still cheat the damage, and as the damage flip is not a duel flip, but rather a result of a won duel, it is not affected by Stare Down).

I'm not saying you can't beat Lilith. I just think you're greatly underestimating her melee prowess Ropetus. I have some trouble against Nico with her, but Nico lists have crazy statlines (due to bolster), very good melee abilities (flurry, paired weapons, rot) and solid defence (hard to wound counters her great sword and she needs to cheat high to do real damage, so she burns the cards quickly when killing the zombies).

Unless Marcus brings some real non-beast fighters, the beasts do not have much that can challenge her in melee. Even Waldgeists and Silurid, even after she burned her Soulstones.

Her weaknesses are very clear defined - magic her with Rst:WP spells, preferably ones that do lots of damage or even blasts (so she has to stay away from her retinue). Failing at that (I'm not sure if Marcus crew has any way of obtaining these), hire some SERIOUS melee fighters with survivability and then use the tricks Ropetus proposes to help them. If Marcus brings Joss or Steamborg Executioner, they bring Flurry and enough attacks to hopefully do Lilith in.

TLDR version:

Magic her and if you can't, bring Cb7+ guys with Flurry, Paired weapons and Rot/Flay/Decapitate/Brutal or any other damage boosting/control card denying/killing trigger you can think of.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Ropetus]

My point is that you don't need to kill Lilith to win (unless your Strategy is Assassinate but that sucks for everyone). If you can force her to focus on defensive actions (Alluring, Defensive Stance, Walking behind cover) instead of using those AP to kill your crew you should be able to complete your objectives. After Defensive Stance, her Charge threat range is only 9" (7" movement + 2" reach) which is avoidable with a Marcus Crew. Most of the time the best thing to do against her is to focus on killing her crew (especially Tots before they grow up) and ignore the almost unkillable Df8 master.

After all, Malifaux is a scenario based game where most of the time you don't need to kill all your opposition to win.

-Ropetus

Edited June 19, 2010 by Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

That I can 100% agree with.

I've noticed that if the match-up seems impossible to beat in Malifaux, always focus on objectives and avoid direct combat where possible.

I just think you are overly optimistic as far as Marcus strategies in suppresing Lilith go. Bringing Steamborg Executioner, Joss or even Convict Gunslinger is probably far more reliable strategy than trying to pull out control combos which burn entire Marcus activation in hope of drawing Soulstones out (which they may fail to do).

And even if you manage to truly bog Lilith down with Defensive Stance (Alluring is more of an offensive ability so there's no need to cast it until you're sure you are close enough to charge in), she can still keep Transpositioning her victims to her or herself in the midst of Marcus crew - not easy to avoid her, unless you have something that would make her actually WANT to stay away (i.e. good survivable fighter with Flurry and Cb high enough to overcome her defenses).

Last but not least, if I play Lilith against Wp intensive crews, I treat every game as Assassination, and fan out to grab objectives only after I kill the master. Lilith has plenty of tricks and is a more complex master than people give it to her, but her tricks are focused on tactics and execution of these tactics - her strategy is always simple: murder.

That makes avoiding her entirely quite a challenge. It's one thing to not want to go after opponent's master, it's another thing to face a master who wants to come for you and given the right hand can pull it out pretty easily.

[Ropetus]

Still, if you want to stick to theme (as most people around here like to do) you can make Lilith's life hard with a Marcus crew with only beasts. Using Howl + Feral + Stare Down on Lilith (still leaves 1 AP for Walk/Defensive stance/Strike, more if you have Student to grant Fast) and having a Cerberus/Myranda nearby to cast Roar should make it a tough decicion for Lilith to stay anywhere near your crew. Actually, you don't nececcarily even need the card for casting Roar in your control hand as even the threat could be enough for Lilith to do something else. Applies equally to every model in Lilith's crew (except Striking could be better to make them Beasts).

Most of the "solutions" you recommend have Cb6, which is the same as many Beasts (Cerberus, Razorspine, Waldgeists, Marcus can even match Paired with Eagle) so these should be just as fine for attacking her. These can also match Paired with extra attacks and replace their survivability with mobility (Leap, Self Preservation, attacking through forests, 12" charge, Lightning quick). They're not necessarily as effective killers as the Steamborg but they don't need to: a Silurid can Charge or Walk/Leap + Strike, then use Self Preservation to retreat and Walk/Leap once more to get far far away. Rince and repeat for nice attrition damage on your opponents. How long can the Steamborg survive if you end it's activation next to Lilith's crew?

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

If he uses flurry, chances are he won't have too. Even with disengaging abilities Silurid won't ge far enough to avoid Lilith's counter-charge.

I also don't see how Student of Conflict is more "in theme" than any of the models I propose.

But the biggest flaw I see is this - for Stare Down trick to work, you need to burn 2 AP, right? If you want other models to add Roar or Howl, that's 3-4. If you have bad hand (or Lillith's good), she doesn't have to burn stones to stop entire combo at all.

If the combo goes through however, all she needs to do is spend 1AP to counter Stare Down's debuff. That simply doesn't look to me like an equal trade. Perhaps it works. I'd rather make sure there are models around which can easily handle her if the debuff lands - that way she'll have to stay away.

[Ropetus]

You seem to like Flurry a lot. Let me ask: What are the chances of the Steamborg starting it's activation with Lilith in his melee range? The Steamborg/Joss cannot move when they Flurry so unless Lilith does something stupid getting a Flurry on her is a dream at best. Ok, you could do a crazy chain Charge with Knock Aside but that would require you to cheat 2-3 times with :masks .

Marcus needs 0 AP to Feral + Stare Down (both are (0) actions). Add in Howl to make her Wp 3. Now all you need is a 10 to make Feral irresistable without Soulstone use, 9 to be resistable with the Red Joker only without Soulstones and any higher will make it very hard to resist. To me that combo does not seem costly at all. If you don't have any cards higher than 9 in your control hand engaging on that turn would be foolish even with those heavy hitters.

Besides, the whole point of this is to force Lilith to retreat instead of coming after your crew. If you can keep all your models (at least those Lilith can reach) within Marcus's LoS it will be very hard for Lilith to engage any of them without suffering from Stare Down. After all, she pretty much has to activate next if we have the Cerberus nearby threatening to Roar against her Wp3 with .

Against a Master like Lilith Marcus doesn't really have anything better to do than trying to shut down the other Master. And he is damn good at that job.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

You seem to like Flurry a lot. Let me ask: What are the chances of the Steamborg starting it's activation with Lilith in his melee range? The Steamborg/Joss cannot move when they Flurry so unless Lilith does something stupid getting a Flurry on her is a dream at best. Ok, you could do a crazy chain Charge with Knock Aside but that would require you to cheat 2-3 times with :masks .

Joss can buff his Armor to 3 with Force Field, charge in and stand a reasonable chance of surviving Lillith's coutner-strike. Especially if there's another model or two and she opts for whirling strike. Combined with Armor 3, his 8 WD is pretty solid - in absolutely worst case scenario Lilith may do him 9 wounds, but only if she forgoes alluring, and with df6 vs her cb of 7 he is close enough to win the duels by simple cheating (we assume you drew out her Soulstones before that, of course).

If she casts alluring, he'll be defending with Df4, but she can do 6 damage max (2 strikes with full damage) - not enough to get rid of him.

Steamborg is somewhat worse proposition, but, he can do complex charges in, she will have to overcome his Terryfying to counter-strike (twice - once after he finishes his activation near her and another time when she activates to strike him back). His Df is only 4 (2 with Alluring), but 10 wounds and Armour 1 make it a proposition survivable enough.

Granted, alone those models don't solve situation, but none of the beasts has survivability to match this and if you team these models with the beasts, you get an anchor Lillith will be afraid to charge - she knows she's likely to fail killing Joss or Steamborg, even if she gets other models, and she knows they have potential to do her in if her hand gets bad and Soulstones are gone, unlike the beasts which start with considerably inferior positions (more complex triggers, worse Cb, lower weapon damage, lower chance to hit etc.).

Marcus needs 0 AP to Feral + Stare Down (both are (0) actions). Add in Howl to make her Wp 3. Now all you need is a 10 to make Feral irresistable without Soulstone use, 9 to be resistable with the Red Joker only without Soulstones and any higher will make it very hard to resist. To me that combo does not seem costly at all.

0 actions are still actions, even if from another pool.

The drawback is you cast (0)Feral, you fail it and your entire combo is done in for the turn. Even if you draw 1 Soulstone a turn that way, you still are leaving her with 2~3 free Soulstones for the game (I doubt you can start the combo in turns 1 & 2, unless she advances with no cover and then you have 4+ turns against her 8SS pool she's quite likely to have).

But let's assume you succeed. So, you spend your actions to get her Stared Down. Now your Marcus cannot companion a beast and cannot Wild Heart, so he himself is reasonably useless for the turn, even if he has some AP left. All you got is a , but only if she sees Marcus - as I said, one activation from her Nephilim to simply fly and block the LoS, or herself or her Cherub recasting the Illusionary Forest spoils the entire tactic.

I'm not saying it's a bad tactic. Chances are she will spend her SS to block Feral, if she can. But then what? Even if she runs out of SS, she can easily counter that. If all she faces are beasts, which are reasonably weak in Defence, she may not even care about the debuff (i.e. let it through, get the and simply hope she can hit anyway and use SS for something else). She can also counter the debuff costing you several actions with 1 AP of hers, her totem's or activation of her minion.

Besides, the whole point of this is to force Lilith to retreat instead of coming after your crew. If you can keep all your models (at least those Lilith can reach) within Marcus's LoS it will be very hard for Lilith to engage any of them without suffering from Stare Down.

She can block his LoS at will with the Illusionary Forest. It may be less than 3", but unless he enters it (and he has already activated before her for the entire strategy to make sense), he won't draw LoS through it.

After all, she pretty much has to activate next if we have the Cerberus nearby threatening to Roar against her Wp3 with .

She can well activate right after the debuff. If the Cerberus is in range, she can charge in and kill it in one turn easily, even with the debuff.

Against a Master like Lilith Marcus doesn't really have anything better to do than trying to shut down the other Master. And he is damn good at that job.

-Ropetus

I perfectly understand what you propose and I actually agree with you.

All I'm saying is Marcus with the beasts alone has little chance to pull this out.

To make her REALLY not want to go head-first into models that may Roar at her etc. you need to protect these models with something that can kill her and survive one turn of beating from her before that.

Beasts Marcus has, even Waldgeist, are not very likely to achieve that (well, Waldgeist perhaps, with their Armour 2, but they have only 7 wounds, and she goes into 8 with 2 strikes against such armour).

Fully charged Joss or Steamborg Executioner (but especially Joss) actually can make her think she may not do it - and that is what you want to achieve, right?

Remember that with current LoS rules it's very easy to place yourself so that Stare Down doesn't work. Hopefully that gets fixed soon, but right now even the model she charges, if she ends her charge smartly, will block the LoS to Marcus, right (Silurid, Waldgeist and Cerberus are Ht2, Rattler is even ht3, so equal to both models, hence blocking LoS)?

Edited June 20, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Ropetus]

She can well activate right after the debuff. If the Cerberus is in range' date=' she can charge in and kill it in one turn easily, even with the debuff.[/quote']

Roar ignores LoS and has a range of 22" (Leap 9" + Walk 5" + R8"). There is absolutely no need for the Cerberus to go anywhere near Lilith's or anyone else's LoS to get Charged. I find the Cerberus best kept in a reserve and unleash it when the opportunity arises, Leaping in for 2-4 Strikes with maybe a Roar inbetween.

However, it really looks like we're discussing different scenarios here. Your plan seems to be killing Lilith with melee fighters while I'm ignoring that (since it's very tough no matter what you do) and instead trying to limit her options and prevent her from interfering with my objectives (which will not drain most of your resources). If your Strategy is Assassinate then your plan makes absolutely perfect sense but then we get the problem of how to catch Lilith when she runs away 18" a turn.

Also, what SS range are you talking about? If you bring in both Joss and Steamborg you will not have space for pretty much anything else unless you play like a 40 SS game.

-Ropetus

[Q'iq'el]

The point I'm trying to make is this:

Lilith is not just a master. She's a master who's only way to deal with stuff is to kill it.

So what you need to prevent her from going in and messing up with your objectives is not a mere debuff, even as strong as Stare Down/Roar, but a defensive character who scares her away by the virtue of being survivable and able to kill her.

I don't argue to bring Joss or Steamborg to kill her.

I'm saying to bring them, so that once you draw out her Soulstones and debuff her, she won't pursue her killing plan anymore.

I feel that what you propose simply won't work on the table without such a deterrent, but once you add the deterrent, then your plan may very well be successful.

I gave the example of Nico/Punk Zombies early on. With the buffed Zombies for body guards it is practically useless for Lillith to risk going after Nicodem - Df7, Cb9 Hard to Wound 1 zombie killing machines really make her life miserable. This is sort of deterrent you should aim for if you want an avoidance tactic to work against her - and Marcus must go outside beast-only crew to obtain it, I feel.

I also understand the argument about Roar range etc. I feel you can't use these in isolation and I also think you overestimate it. Sure, you can reduce Lilith's WP to 3. The roar is also cast with Ca of 3, so you need a 11+ :tomes in your control hand to even consider casting it and she's on equal footing when it comes to countering it without the SS use. That's a situational proposition, not something you can count on.

In addition, Lilith covers 18" a turn, her threat range is 17", with almost no terrain slowing her down. Her entire crew is really fast and mostly flying - on par or faster than Marcus' beasts (as I said, even Silurid's Silence doesn't protect from Flying Nephilim well enough).

If roar is going to be a problem, she'll deal with Roar before it becomes the problem, unless you protect the Cerberus - here we go back to "bring Joss/Steamborg" argument: you have nothing to protect valuable models with, unless you bring something heavy-duty. The Soulstone-drawing ploy is going to take long time before it kicks in (reliably you can count on it by turn 5, maybe 4, if her SS pool is low), and she will easily eliminate some pieces of the puzzle by then, unless you protect them.

Would Marcus be able to bring some really powerful Rst:WP damaging spells, it'd be another story. As long as the damaging strikes run along the Df line, you really need something that can survive Lilith's beating for at least a turn and lash back strongly enough against her, to make her stay away.

And she'll probably spend the game working around that obstacle, so it's going to be a resource hog nevertheless.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Axhead]

As a potential Marcus player, this thread has been super helpful! Thanks guys

[Ropetus]

So what you really are trying to say that Lilith is a special Master in the sense that unless you bring in the exact crew (multiple high Paired Cb high Dmg beatsticks and nothing else) that counters all her advantages or you will lose every time? Trying to bring anything else against her will never work since she will kill everything you have before they get a chance to do anything?

What I'm trying to do is hand out ideas for OP on how to deal with Lilith with those models (Marcus + Beasts) instead of telling them to buy an entire new faction to beat Lilith.

I think it's pointless to continue the discussion since we're not talking about the same topic at all.

-Ropetus

[Blank]

I agree with you Ax, this thread is incredibly helpful. I never though I would get so much information on this. Maybe I'll take this info and write up a helpful guide on Marcus for people thinking about playing him (or those who already do).

Thanks a lot everyone! Keep it going!

[Q'iq'el]

So what you really are trying to say that Lilith is a special Master in the sense that unless you bring in the exact crew (multiple high Paired Cb high Dmg beatsticks and nothing else) that counters all her advantages or you will lose every time?

Not at all. What I'm saying is Lillith has no choice but to go and kill Marcus, Cerberus and other models throwing Rst:WP spells at her. No matter the scenario, she has to do it, because she's designed to be an assassin, not someone supporting her crew to win objectives.

If she resigns from killing these characters, she's just useless and her crew will most probably lose the objective grabbing game.

So you propose to debuff her to deter her, but that won't deter her at all - she will have to go and try to kill your models, because they are debuffing her.

And as good as Marcus debufffs and Roar are, they are not strong enough to defeat her if she still goes after you. They may delay the death, but she will still win.

So you need to add a REAL deterrent. A real deterrent is something to make her NOT WANT to come to these characters.

I'm not saying I get it right, but all I could find was Joss and Steamborg, as far as models available to Marcus go. Perhaps there are better/cheaper propositions out there.

Trying to bring anything else against her will never work since she will kill everything you have before they get a chance to do anything?

She may not succeed but she'll have to try. You must present her with situation where trying is really risky - the debuffs alone won't do it. Even the Roar is not enough, as it is a spell only 4 cards in 54 deck allow you to cast and 7 cards in the same deck counter (assuming she's reduced to the WP3 and has no SS).

What I'm trying to do is hand out ideas for OP on how to deal with Lilith with those models (Marcus + Beasts) instead of telling them to buy an entire new faction to beat Lilith.

I think it's pointless to continue the discussion since we're not talking about the same topic at all.

-Ropetus

Yes we are arguing the same thing. I don't even argue with your strategy, but merely point out a flaw with it and proposing a fix (call it constructive critique if you want).

In other words I'm trying to point out is that your strategy is exactly what I'll do myself, just you need to add a model to your crew that will make the strategy work.

I also fail to see how buying Joss or Steamborg is buying entire new faction.

I feel it is helpful for Marcus players to realize they are not very well off if they limit themselves to beasts alone. It may be themed, but it's over-restrictive. There are other models in their own faction they need to fill in the gaps. At least that's how it looks from Lilith player point of view, I think.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Q'iq'el