How does/will Leviticus play now?

[Arkanthaes]

I saw Wierd mention that, in the new Erratta, they're going to be making it clear that summoned models maintain Slow until their next activation.

This ensures Leveticus will keep slow after he's been brought back by a Hollow Waif.

Personally, I'm struggling to even pose a threat now, as my typial list (involving SPA's and Flash Constructs) doesn't generate the cards I need to even keep the Flesh's rolling, let alone have any chance at staying alive. And the damage hit on Leveticus is massive.

So, any tips/ideas on how to play with Leveticus being almost constantly slow?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I saw Wierd mention that, in the new Erratta, they're going to be making it clear that summoned models maintain Slow until their next activation.

It's not a "New Errata".

It's in the rules of the book.

Page 46:

(-1) Slow: The model forfeits 1 general AP during its current or next activation, whichever comes first.

With Eternally Shackled, he gets summoned during the Closing Phase. So he'd be Slow on his next activation.

[DangerousBeans]

It's not that bad. He's still got his 1 general AP, 1 casting expert AP and can walk for free (well, suffers wounds but no ap expenditure) so still evens out at 3ap even if he's slightly limited with how to use them.

[Arkanthaes]

It's ambiguous, as the Summoning rules themselves say they gain slow till the end of the turn.

Either way, it's been/is going to be clarified. So we don't need it pointed out, especially not that my clarification of a completely irrelevant word is wrong. Can we focus on the question I asked before devolving into asinine pedantry?

As for Leveticus' AP, I find it too limited. I tend to be forced to keep my Hollow Waif(s) out of range, meaning I'm forced to use atleast Necromantic Sacrifice, more often than not a second Walk action, to even be in range. This is because my opponents are either fast enough to threten my Hollow Waif if it's too close (Lillith, Pandora), or can send one cheapy Belle round the flank, ready to lure it out the second it gets close enough to be useful.

The lack of AP then seriously limits his damage. Unnatural Wasting is a safe bet, but only reliable if you have a high crow/tome in your hands/are willing to risk Leveticus being slaughtered again by using Death's Lessons (I find that, more often than not, I have to sacrifice good cards to keep him with a "safe" buffer of wounds to prevent a second consecutive slow turn). Even then, it seems so easy to resist, with most worthwhile targets having a massive defence or being part of a gang that draws so many cards they can barely hold them.

Necrotic Unmaking, his only other damaging spell (aside from Desolation, but that's even harder to get working, I've found) is a 16 to cast, and only does 3 wounds. That means, when slowed, at best, Leve will do 6 wounds. From what I've found, most Masters can easily put out 6 wounds an action.

The rest of my list isn't very effective either. Alyce has done 4 wounds over 10+ games, one successful headshot. My Flesh Constructs used to be good, but now they're just baited across the field. The SPA's/Desolation Engine is very polar for me, either it survives past turn 1 and will give me the chance to win, or will die turn 1 and leave me screwed.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It's ambiguous, as the Summoning rules themselves say they gain slow till the end of the turn.

Either way, it's been/is going to be clarified. So we don't need it pointed out, especially not that my clarification of a completely irrelevant word is wrong. Can we focus on the question I asked before devolving into asinine pedantry?

Change the tone please.

[n0signal]

LOL. I always thought it seemed like Leveticus had a lot of AP; this clarification makes a lot of sense, balance-wise. He is an incredibly powerful master, so being slow in exchange for cheating death constantly seems fair.

[IronChief]

Personally, I'm struggling to even pose a threat now, as my typial list (involving SPA's and Flash Constructs) doesn't generate the cards I need to even keep the Flesh's rolling, let alone have any chance at staying alive. And the damage hit on Leveticus is massive.

SPA's are relatively weak and are mainly something you get as the game goes along though you may want to start with some if you are using Desolation Engine.

I would rethink your list. Have you looked here:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10131

[tenabrae]

It's not a "New Errata".

It's in the rules of the book.

Page 46:

With Eternally Shackled, he gets summoned during the Closing Phase. So he'd be Slow on his next activation.

"A summoned model may activate during the turn it was summoned but receives Slow for that turn. After that turn, the summoned model has full capabilities."

That's pretty unambiguous. It may not be the intent, and may be getting changed, but it's certainly what the book says right now.

I had assumed this was the entire intent of the timing of Levi coming back in the closing instead of at the start of the following turn.

Edited April 21, 2010 by tenabrae

[Amarel]

I had assumed this was the entire intent of the timing of Levi coming back in the closing instead of at the start of the following turn.

Same here.

[Omadon]

I honestly cannot see what your problem is. Well. I can see a few - for one thing. Flesh Constructs. I made the problem in that statement bold. They drain cards - which arent particularly freely available. Only eeveerr run one.

Also - If you're worried about the waif, take a canine remains and make another one - hide one, swing the other forth, so they can either waste a shot killing it, or give you a waif to springboard off - as you summon within 6 of them.

Furthermore - Death's Lessons is possibly the most bent (0) in the entire game. Levi is the only model, bar Zoradia - who it doesn't matter with, that can plan his soulstone. If you want to cast anything, on any kind of master - you use lessons to put the higest card in your top 3 cards second down, then cheat to something high. This in mind - Levi flat kills, without any interaction with the opposing player, and model with 6Wd, with 2 AP, (wasting/transformation) or pretty much definetly kills anytihng with 9HP (wasting/unmaking). How on earth you've got it into your head that wasting is difficult to cast, with all of his deck fixing/extra cards off Alyce, I will never know. Levi is a cannon - I feel like we're talking about different masters here? I main Levi, and I only ever have trouble if somebody's purposfully denied me the capacity to kill myself.

Also - bare in mind, if on the turn before you plan to go into combat, save lessons til the end of your activation to rig the top of your deck, as you don't shuffle before you reincarnate.

And. Hangon. Did you just diss Alyce? O_o She has Rapid Fire, and Headshot. Rapid Fire, and Headshot. Not to mention solid CB, and a decent a solid damage band reguardless. She's pants on the agressive, as she only gets one shot, but keep her somewhere valuable for the scenario, and point her at a killjoy, or a teddy, or an executioner, or you know, anything with 6DF or less. Obviously. You do not use her early in the turn - as you'll just make them discard cards. But pair her with something scary earlier in the turn (IE - Killjoy, or a round of questionably mediocre casting from Levi with the intent of burning cards out of their hand) and then dump a bunch of rams on them. I'd say that was highly dependant upon what you've got to draw with - if you didn't have disciplined caster and death's lessons to work with.

Seriously - if you dispel the notion you've developed here that Levi's damage cap is 6WD, then consider this - you get 6 cards off reincarnate at the start of the turn, +2 from Alyce +2 from Disciplined Caster, annd you get to fix the top 3? Lilith scares the crap out of me when she gets to draw 8, and she can't plan her soulstones. With all due respect, the problem is with you, not the master ^^

EDIT: The more I think about it. Your whole playstyle is wrong. Ditching good cards to keep him alive means that A) You've lost that card, and You won't be drawing more off reincarnate, and C) in exchange for 1AP, you're automatically losing a wound off unstable necromancy, and you're probably going to need to use lessons again (tbh, I can't think of a reason -not- to use lessons). Rethink this! I cannot stress this enough! Levi is supposed to die, thats his thing. The extra AP you get is a luxury to enjoy on turn one, and rarley ever else. His biggest movement trick is his ability to summon himself - and so long as you arent barren of terrain, there should be abundant places to hide waifs. The only issue Levi can really encounter due to his low HP is summoning in a charge lane for something that has the potential to kill him in one round of combat, and then just not getting his activation for that turn - that sucks, but hiding behind places and using sacrifice to reposition is all I've found I've needed.

So - to paraphrase. Completley ditch how you're apparently playing Levi, it doesn't work. Let him die, kiss goodbye to that third AP, and contemplate all of the horrible, abusive stuff you can do with Death's Lessons. That will be all.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Omadon

[n0signal]

"A summoned model may activate during the turn it was summoned but receives Slow for that turn. After that turn, the summoned model has full capabilities."

That's pretty unambiguous. It may not be the intent, and may be getting changed, but it's certainly what the book says right now.

I had assumed this was the entire intent of the timing of Levi coming back in the closing instead of at the start of the following turn.

Ah, but despite saying "may activate" in the turn it was summoned, I'm sure somewhere else in the book it says that models HAVE to activate and spend all their AP each turn, and that if you do nothing with them, you've effectively used all their AP for (1)Pass actions.

So, with most things that are summoned, whether you choose to activate them and do something with them or not, they have activated and have had their (-1)Slow activation.

Levi can't activate on that turn, due to it being the closing phase, so his (-1)Slow is carried over to the next turn. That is how I read it, logically speaking. (BTW, I've pretty much been playing this incorrectly along with most people in this thread, but now it's been pointed out to me, I can see how it all fits together - just gotta accept that you've been playing wrong and adapt next time you do.)

[Omadon]

It's the only way to make him fair! A Levi that could teleport around the board in the closing phase with all of his AP would be a monstrosity. I've been playing him as though he was slow from the start, and it doesn't hinder him in the slightest.

[tenabrae]

Levi can't activate on that turn, due to it being the closing phase, so his (-1)Slow is carried over to the next turn. That is how I read it, logically speaking. (BTW, I've pretty much been playing this incorrectly along with most people in this thread, but now it's been pointed out to me, I can see how it all fits together - just gotta accept that you've been playing wrong and adapt next time you do.)

I can't agree that it's playing 'wrong' ... Summoned clearly says you act normally in the turn after you're summoned. Similarly, Levi wouldn't get to activate when he summons in the closing phase because the activation phase has ended by that point, he simply summons and sits there until the next activation phase at which point he 'has full capabilities'.

Again, it may not be what the designers intended, but it's what they wrote. I don't intend to start playing him as slow until/unless it gets an errata.

[Omadon]

Then you're missrepresenting the rules. *points at the henchman badge by your name* You see that? That means you need to actually play the game by the rules. The clarification you need is on page 1 of this thread - look at Sketch's post. Whatever your interpretation of the rule is/was, it is clearly, unequivocally wrong.

EDIT: I believe that the problem we're encountering here is that the text on summoning is that they recieve slow for their next activation only - if you presume that the rules text saying that the next turn they activate as normal is a badly worded shortcut to saying that summoning doesn't have any permanent negetive effects upon the model. Like summoned things arent permanently slow. Just on their next activation. Leveticus's interaction with the end of the turn is an unfortunate colission with this bit of reminder text. The wording on Slow itself is all you need to look at in this case.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Omadon

[Nutcase168]

I played him as slow last night and it didn't really make a difference. Without slow the guy almost has 4 AP which is pretty wrong.

And as for his damage potential I turned a barely wounded mature nephilim to a SPA without any trouble in one activation.

[n0signal]

@Omadon: Your tone is a little aggressive towards some people on this thread; even though you're essentially correct in your arguments. I'd suggest adopting a slightly more courteous tone otherwise people will be naturally resilient to your suggestions/opinions - which would be a shame, because as I said - you're essentially correct in your assumptions.

[GlosterGamer]

Omadon, not wanting to get to far off subject but what do you play Leveticus with at standard points limits, say 25,30 & 35SS.

Do you go with the massive monster team, i.e. Desolation engines, killjoy and flesh constructs. Or something a little more subtle?

GlosterGamer

[tenabrae]

snip

Everyone can be wrong, I don't believe I am in this situation.

Wierd Sketches post doesn't address the wording of the rules for summoning, it only addresses the wording of slow, this rule isn't a case that can be taken in isolation.

All buckets are red for the next 5 minutes

This blue bucket is red for 1 minute and is then normal

Logically the blue bucket is only red for one minute.

[Omadon]

With Eternally Shackled, he gets summoned during the Closing Phase. So he'd be Slow on his next activation.

How do you detect even a single iota of ambiguity in this? This isn't a statement about slow, it's a statement about slow, and it's interaction with eternally shackled. The bit of rules text that you're clinging to is effectivley missrepresented reminder text.

Also - Gloster. It depends upon weather or not I'm desperate for the last activation. One fact remains though - I'm incredibly fond of Killjoy - and I tend to run him with either Belles or Necropunks. I tend to stick to him as the only large points investment, unless you consider 8 expensive, as running without Alyce just isn't possible.

Furthermore - n0s, my appologies. Shall attempt to moderate my vehemence in future

[tenabrae]

Why would summon say anything other than 'the model recieves slow' if it weren't modifying the way slow normally works ? The designers have added an entire additional clause to the summoning rule which would be uneccessary if you were to apply slow 'as normal'.

I'm stepping out now, it'll get an errata/added to the errata errata or it won't. No point making this circular.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

You got Peanut Butter in my Chocolate!

You got Chocolate in my Peanut Butter!

Wait a minute guys!

***Teletype machine sounds*** Breaking News! This just in! ***Teletype machine sounds***

We are changing the Summon clause to a Place clause in Eternally Shackled.

There will be a wording change forthcoming for Summon/Slow as well.

Stay tuned True Believers!

***Teletype machine sounds*** Breaking News! This just in! ***Teletype machine sounds***

Edited April 22, 2010 by WEiRD sKeTCH

[Omadon]

... BAHHAAAHAAHAA!

Oh. Oh my. Oh this is too good. I honestly, honestly do not believe that he needs the buff. But shall welcome it with open arms.

However - will this be in B2B with a waif? As that would be.. somewhat debilitating. A pox upon thee! I want the whole truth! >

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I want the whole truth! >

You'll get it when it's ready. :firedevil

[tenabrae]

... BAHHAAAHAAHAA!

However - will this be in B2B with a waif? As that would be.. somewhat debilitating. A pox upon thee! I want the whole truth! >

That'd make me sad too

More offensive waif-casting rather than the bunny-hop method I guess.

[Keltheos]

Don't bunny-hop to conclusion boys.