Page 5

[blkdymnd]

Never seen it talked about, but the malifaux rulebook has a 'page 5' it seems. Those that have ever played warmachine know what I mean. The demeanor and everything is pretty much spot on. So, just wondering if it was an intentional bit of tongue in cheek or not?

[Justin]

Never seen it talked about, but the malifaux rulebook has a 'page 5' it seems. Those that have ever played warmachine know what I mean. The demeanor and everything is pretty much spot on. So, just wondering if it was an intentional bit of tongue in cheek or not?

It does?

If so, I didn't see it. I mean, I believe you, but I guess I'm glad I didn't see it.

I actually bought the warmachine books when it very first came out and I was pretty interested. I like buying and reading the book before investing in models. And, I can honestly say page 5 is the only reason I do not own any warmachine models. Totally turned me off.

[karn987]

Really? Page 5 for WM turned you off to the game? I think thats the first time I've ever heard that from someone. Usually thats what sells them on the game.

[Poko]

Really? I was put off by it for a long time. After I tried I quickly sold the models as the game just didn't work for me in the long run anyway, but p.5 does great disservice to the game IMO. Of course round here we regularily make fun of "cold-blooded tabletop killers" of WM in conversations, due to the page in qestion, so it speaks of our player's attitude;)

[Justin]

Really? Page 5 for WM turned you off to the game? I think thats the first time I've ever heard that from someone. Usually thats what sells them on the game.

It just struck me as, "Look at us! We're not gamesworkshop!"

Which, yeah, probably is what sells a lot of people on the game. But I could tell they weren't gamesworkshop by the name of their company. And I had a sneaking suspicion that as they had to come out with more and more rules that didn't all mesh well with each other, and more and more models (as these games tend to, to keep companies in business) they would either become more and more like gamesworkshop, or more and more like a disorganized mess.

Plus I like gamesworkshop. Or, at least, I enjoy their products.

And, I don't have my warmachine books on me (hell, I don't even know where they are or if my first edition copies can still be used) but I distinctly remember the tone of page 5 striking me as condescending. Like the company was started by a bunch of rules lawyers who would make things far too competitive. But, not being able to look it up maybe that was just the way I read it.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Justin

[Justin]

Really? I was put off by it for a long time. After I tried I quickly sold the models as the game just didn't work for me in the long run anyway, but p.5 does great disservice to the game IMO. Of course round here we regularily make fun of "cold-blooded tabletop killers" of WM in conversations, due to the page in qestion, so it speaks of our player's attitude;)

There are probably a lot of people out there like you and me. When somebody gets into warmachine because of pg. 5, they probably make it known. But when they scan through the rulebook in their local shop, see that page, put it down and vote with their feet...well, you probably never hear anything about warmachine from them again.

[Wombats]

Malifaux's page 5 is more about Eric's design philosophy than anything.

Its certainly nothing like Warmachine's "You can abuse your little brother for not wanting to play with you" page 5.

I couldn't find any Warmachine players who would actually explain the complexities of the rules in my first game and do anything but go haha I win.

When I did find some good people to play with they had all converted to Malifaux in the last few months

I still own a Retribution army because they are beautiful, I don't know that I'll ever play with them.

[blkdymnd]

And don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to do a disservice to Eric's philosophy, who I think is a very standup fellow and a much better representative to his game than Matt W is for his game. It just struck me as funny, and the design notes have a "tone". I'm not saying it's as blatantly over the top as PP's Page 5, but when I read it, I had 3 of our group read it (without telling them what I thought) and asked them what was the first thing that came to mind. Each one did the same thing, read it, looked down at the page number, chuckled and thought it was great. We know Eric didn't intend it that way, but we see it as kind of a slap in the face to those that live their gaming life by Page 5.

[n0signal]

I've always found "Page 5" to be a very amusing tradition (it's in every Warmachine and Hordes expansion too); it's a bit of fun really and nothing more. It's just a page of smack-talk, like some wrestler meat head might espouse in the ring to work the crowd up; seriously... don't take it seriously.

[blkdymnd]

I've always found "Page 5" to be a very amusing tradition (it's in every Warmachine and Hordes expansion too); it's a bit of fun really and nothing more. It's just a page of smack-talk, like some wrestler meat head might espouse in the ring to work the crowd up; seriously... don't take it seriously.

And I know thats the way it was intended, but it's sad that so many think that they need to reflect that in their gaming and do take it too seriously.

[n0signal]

And I know thats the way it was intended, but it's sad that so many think that they need to reflect that in their gaming and do take it too seriously.

Yeah, but that's a problem with asshat gamers, not with a silly page of smack-talk.

[The Mortificator]

I always saw Page 5 as a jest and nothing more; I never really put any stock into it as a motto for the game. Fortunately, my wargaming group is pretty easy-going and none of us go out of our way to crush one another and laugh the entire time. I do find it to be a tad obnoxious when talking to people online, especially when it comes to discussing rules balancing. Apparently they feel it's a no-excuses shield against such thinking.

More on topic, Malifaux's Page 5 really seems to promote a more active "Go out and do something about it" ideal over the "Tough nuggets, get used to it" from the other books. Still not going to make it a proverb to live by, though.

[Runewolf]

I played GW games for many years untill they changed the rules yet a third time for sales sake and then i started WM when they first released their first rulebook. Took up a group of RPG gamers and convert them to WM and we loved it, loved page 5 and we all made our factions big. Then came the tournament rules and every player turned into a competitor and stopped to have casual, friendly games for the sake of been the best. I realized that PP was moving in a way that i could predict based on what i have lived with GW and i told my friends, then, came mk2. I was left behind because i refused to keep with it, cause i play for fun win or loose and WM players where i live were made to be competitors first. So i came back to GW (heck if i like the minis i buy them play or no play) and i found Malifaux's in his first steps. Now i dont have a playing group but i enjoy a good set of rules and minis, own a couple of games i'll never play (Anima, Infinity, Pulp City, etc.) but prefer to have a nice time playing not so often with some old friend, than to play every day and push the buttons out of everyone just because i want to win and be the best player there is.

[Ivellis]

Wow, the PP hate is silly, "Page 5" was always a joke and never meant to be taken seriously, being turned off the game because of it is childish.

I've never met a Warmachine player who took it seriously, even in competition and I hope I never do. And MKII really did go a long way to fixing most of the brokenness in the game system.

Besides that, I had a chuckle when I read the Malifaux page 5, anyone who doesn't think it's a homage is kidding themselves and I hope to see one in each new expansion.

[Justin]

Wow, the PP hate is silly, "Page 5" was always a joke and never meant to be taken seriously, being turned off the game because of it is childish.

Yeah, sure, it's silly. But every joke has a kernel of truth. And I know enough about people to understand that just because I won't take it seriously, doesn't mean others won't.

Plus I was at a point where I really hadn't invested anything in the game. I had no models and if I wanted my friends to play I would have had to get them into it. After watching the warmachine players where I game, and from what I have been able to gather about hordes and warmachine and some sort of reset or playtest happening last summer, I am happy with my instincts.

[Ivellis]

Yeah, sure, it's silly. But every joke has a kernel of truth. And I know enough about people to understand that just because I won't take it seriously, doesn't mean others won't.

Plus I was at a point where I really hadn't invested anything in the game. I had no models and if I wanted my friends to play I would have had to get them into it. After watching the warmachine players where I game, and from what I have been able to gather about hordes and warmachine and some sort of reset or playtest happening last summer, I am happy with my instincts.

The playtest was tonnes of fun, PP released the entire beta rules for the new edition online and took feedback from the players to perfect the rules. In general it made the game much, much better. Unfortunately there is still cheesy combination, but nowhere near what there was before.

Really, I think you were just unlucky meeting bad players.

[Justin]

The playtest was tonnes of fun, PP released the entire beta rules for the new edition online and took feedback from the players to perfect the rules. In general it made the game much, much better. Unfortunately there is still cheesy combination, but nowhere near what there was before.

Really, I think you were just unlucky meeting bad players.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I don't have anything against PP, really. Their rules struck me as solid when I read them (although I remember nothing of them now) and I've met plenty of perfectly nice, easy going WM players. Plenty of the other kind as well. So, if I had played it, who knows what my impressions would be now.

But I do know pg. 5 kept me out of it. Once I play a game and spend enough money for an army, it's going to take a good deal to get me to drop it. But, it won't take much to keep me from spending that money. Maybe if it had been pg. 105 it would be a different story.

[Mazin1]

The new page 5 in the MKII book is great. I especially like the part where its basically says, page 5 isnt an excuse to take it to far and to be a jackass.

Im jazzed that I have a chance to break out my dwarfs and elves again.

[karn987]

I would never call page 5 as just a joke, they meant it to have meaning and to inspire their players to be competitive and play like you've got a pair. No one likes playing against the wuss player, you want a strong opponent who can give you a good fight. That is the essence of page 5. In the end, whether friendly or competitive or somewhere in between, it's all about competition. This applies to WM, any GW game, Malifaux, etc. It all boils down to a competition with the intent on having fun while you pit yourself against another person. I know there are some people who faint at the word competition, but thats what these games are in their very essence.

For those of you who used page 5 as an excuse not to even try the game, read the new page 5 in the MK 2 core book, they fixed what your complaining about and even say don't use this as an excuse to be an ass-hat. If page 5 really turns you off, I have to ask why. What is the real reason. The tone is fine, the wording is fine, there is nothing wrong with it except how you interrupt it. If your view on it is the reason, ok thats perfectly fine. Your entitled to your own view (obvioiusly) and thats respected, just as long as you realize that is the reason why and don't make other excuses for it.

[Amidian]

Apart from many of the things already said, I believe some of the intent was to say 'these are the rules of the game, so play the game by these rules. Win because you played a better game, and lose because you played it second best. If you want to invent subjective addons such as Army Composition Scores, and Cheese or Beardy, then realise you invented these as an excuse to losing to a better built or better played army within the rules.'

My group and I have played a lot of Warmachine, and many games tbh, and we play to win - but not at the expense of enjoyment. To not to play to win is to patronise your opponent. To not to let them enjoy the game is being an ass-hat.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Amidian

[Gargathor]

The new page 5 in the MKII book is great. I especially like the part where its basically says, page 5 isnt an excuse to take it to far and to be a jackass.

This.

I can understand that some people were attracted to the original (2003) version of P5, and that some would find it over the top and alienating. The new P5 leaves no doubt that it is NOT an excuse to be a jerk.

[ork56]

Really? Page 5 for WM turned you off to the game? I think thats the first time I've ever heard that from someone. Usually thats what sells them on the game.

I must admit that it appears a little too gung-ho and Hollywood for me. I can imagine what type of players may be drawn to that style of presentation. Although I do tend to agree with what they are saying - its a game where you dont pussyfoot around but go for the kill without moaning when your opponent does it to you first.

The disappointing thing is that since Prime, the game appears to have devolved into one where, depending on who gets first go, you may be assassinated first turn without having a chance to 'bring your A-game'. I prefer a game which doesnt end so abruptly.

[Mazin1]

You are right. But mark II has fixed that. Seems like a lot of people are hung up on someting that was printed in the original Prime. This isnt 2003, and there has been a lot of changes/growing up with Privateer.

I believe they also quoted something along the lines of "pushing plastic on the board". Well Thats has changed since now they offer plastic in their miniature line.

Dont let the American brovado scare you away. You are missing out on a terrific game.

[blkdymnd]

It would be a terrific game if it didn't have feats. And didn't have Matt, who everytime he opens his mouth on his forum makes me glad I quit WM/H. Feats always turned me off to the game after about 6 months of playing it in 2005. The games around here evolved into who can get their caster to the middle first to set up whatever devastating combo with their feat before their opponent. And it just got unfun and is the main reason that I get my WM fix from Malifaux now. My selling point to this game when I'm trying to get guys at the LGS to play, is that Malifaux is like Warmachine, but without all the stuff that makes Warmachine silly.

[Wolfblade]

I'm a loooooong time WM player, was a pressganger (their demo/TO team) and I always felt that page 5 was not so much of a mission statement as a means of getting things hyped up, a rally cry if you will. Did some folks take that to an extreme? Yes, but those people tend to act the same way no matter what they play. In this case they were able to warp page 5 into a defense to hide behind.

Never has it been so true to say: Hate the player, not the game.

Ok now having said that, I have not picked up a WM mini in many months, dont even know if I will pick up the MarkII rulebook anytime soon. not because I dislike the game, just I'm way too busy playing Malifaux.