How can I make the Arcanists work?

[mbowsher76]

I have played Arcanists since the game released. I was drawn to the faction due to the models.

I however, cannot seem to wrap my mind around them and just can't seem to have any success with them.

My biggest problem is how hard it is to get into range of my enemy before dying from ranged attacks (mostly vs guild). With the slow movement (3 or 4 most common) and the low defense (2 or 3) what little damage mitigation they have (armor 1 most common) does not do enough to protect the models.

Far too many models (again, at least with Guild) have LOS and cover ignoring abilities which make using terrain difficult as well.

I find I spend most of my soul stones preventing damage or adding to my duels when trying to avoid being hit. I really do not like being on the defensive all the time and feel like I have very little ability to fight back.

Last night has nearly sealed the deal for me to move to a different faction. I played 30SS against the Ortega box (she kept the additional SS for use in the game). I did not kill a single model! And it wasn't for lack of trying. I played two different lists:

Ramos

Brass Arachnid

Spider Swarm

2 Spiders

Joss

6 SS

and

Rasputina

Essense of Power

Ice Gaimin

Ice Golem

December Acolyte x2

7 SS

In both instances I did some damage but nearly enough or fast enough to stop from being destroyed outright.

It is not just against the Ortegas, I had the same kind of results against the Witch Hunters.

I don't know how to make these models work....I think I am going to move to another faction but was curious how Arcanists are working for others.

[goblyn13]

Can't speak to the Ramos part, but with Rasputina, the Ice gamin and/or golem is key. Use the gamin and the golem to use the Ice mirror, you'll takea hit for casting through it, but that's what soulstones and cheating is for.

Also there is always the "Crazy cat lady list" for Rasputina.

Rasputina

Sabretooth Cerberus (Leap works fantastically, especially when facing Heavy snows)

3 Hoarcat Prides

6ss

The multiple Hoarcats is to help with Devour (with multiples they can use devour on a ht 2 model, not just a ht 1.

But the problem this list has is that there isn't much that can allow her to cast her spells through, but it can cross the board pretty dadgum quick.

[Nutcase168]

The things I've tried so far for Ramos:

-Steamborg will provide mobile cover and not everyone ignores it.

-Ramos Aura spell adds +2 df to all constructs including himself.

-keep steampunk spiders as individuals as they have higher defense.

Don't be afraid to run a spider up to prevent someone from shooting. Stoke it to have it move 8" and then attack twice or move 12" and attack once.

[mbowsher76]

The things I've tried so far for Ramos:

-Steamborg will provide mobile cover and not everyone ignores it.

-Ramos Aura spell adds +2 df to all constructs including himself.

-keep steampunk spiders as individuals as they have higher defense.

Don't be afraid to run a spider up to prevent someone from shooting. Stoke it to have it move 8" and then attack twice or move 12" and attack once.

I didn't think Arcing Screen included Ramos because it did not specify he was included and models are not normally included in their own auras.

Also...it would bring him all the way up to....4df! Lol...not much help.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Don't forget that he can summon an Electrical Creation with just a 7:tomes.

Ramos has almost the most un-defendable damage output of all the masters.

Spiders blow up, 2 Dg no resist

Swarms blow up, 3 Dg no resist

Electrical Creation walks through a model, 1 Wd no resist

Electrical Creation blows up, 2 Dg

Electrical Creation Burst attack, 3 Dg no resist, only need a 7:tomes.

Let them come to you. Let the Steamborg use his steam cloud to block LoS to the models behind him. If they shoot at him, he receives cover. And if need be, have Ramos repair him.

Also, if they're close, Arcing screen so your friendly constructs gain the Defense buff, but if they hit any construct in range of his aura, they take 2 Dg no resist.

[redstripe]

The issue with playing against the Guild is that the Guild learning curve is very brief, where-as with Arcanists and Outcasts (and some Neverborn) the curve is a bit longer.

Rasputina is a bit of a glass cannon. Her Ice Mirror is where he strength seems to be. You've got to keep her out of range or out of LOS of the Guild's guns and bounce your spells onto them through your Golem and Gamin. Don't be afraid to run-run-run your Gamin into place and then activate 'Tina to blast away.

I think Ramos plays a lot like a Rez master. His spiders are for throwing away and then rebuilding.

Marcus is a much more straight-forward list. It's melee-focused which may still be a bad match-up for you, but the models he can bring to the board are super-speedy.

[mbowsher76]

I really don't know what to do at this point.

[mbowsher76]

If I felt I could keep things alive long enought to be able to get close, that would be one thing....but I just get shot to pieces while trying to get close....

[DireTrollJake]

Yeh, I am the guilty player but really, I think the best idea vs the Ortega's would have been Marcus to get in my face really fast. Granted, I do have Francisco in melee, Perdita as a gunfighter and Whered he go on Nino, but low DEF models trying to cast spells against my high defense...

We discussed this tho, I think the biggest thing is still having a luck mentality from dice games. In this, you have a hand to deal with and blowing your high card load on attacks is going to leave you dying fast. I tend to hold high cards for defense and let my attacks stick to negative's and risk 2-3 dmg on weak and moderate. The way I see it, 2-3 dmg with their misses makes me take the round.

[Fool]

How much terrian are you using? When I use Nino, I find that there is usually only one or two good firing lanes. and with more terrian it really makes it fair against the guild.

[DireTrollJake]

Yeh, that's going to be alot of the issue too. Most of our games are pretty open with about 4+ cover walls with a forest and a wall on either side and a few random things.

We are limited on home turf terrain, I for one and working to change this. Bowsher just got a couple of bird houses we are going to be working on too.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

So, lack of terrain and blowing all his good cards on attacks instead of keeping some of them for defense is what's killing him?

:hmpf:

[Fool]

Most mini games treat terrian as a hinderence to the whole play exerpience IMHO. With units that have to act as a whole it becomes a problem when just a few of them are in the woods and the rest are not, but you still have to stay within X of each other. Malifaux makes terrian everyones's friend, because you never worry about getting a unit stuck in some woods. If one guy gets stuck in the woods....you either had a plan or you did an opps, it's not because you ran out of room to place mini's.

Because of this, the less terrian on a table makes it easier for the gamer to process what he has to do. So I believe that we have been stuck in a rut of terrian = bad, slow play, clunky rules, and odd movement of units.

The first game of Malifaux in my LGS I placed a ton of terrian on the table. I thought wow that's way too much. We played the game, and it turned out to be the perfect amount. So, that's what I do now. the guild should only have a few firing lanes to really take advantage of. Which really makes up for their advantage of having guns.

[DireTrollJake]

So, lack of terrain and blowing all his good cards on attacks instead of keeping some of them for defense is what's killing him?

:hmpf:

Well, it sure aint me cheating. And he's the one that taught me the game about 3-4 weeks ago...so...it's something...

[mbowsher76]

I definitely think more terrain would help, but I question how much. Perdita can ignore it with a spell...Nino can ignore most of it, etc....

[TheBugKing]

Do yourselves a favor and put down what you think is way too much. Try for no more then 4 to 6" between each piece of terrain. Keep firing lanes down to 18" or less.

Perdita with Bullet Bending is not the powerhouse shooter that she is with a direct shot. -2Cb is actually quite big.

Give that a go and try hanging on to your cards a bit more.

Also with Ramos I almost always have him between 12 to 18" behind the lines. He frequently salvages under fire and summons spider after spider. I only move up when I need to get the Electrical Creation into range. I have actually stoked Ramos to summon two spiders in a turn. Don't worry about the fact that Ramos loses one spell casting action. Or cast arcing Screen even if it wont do any good if you can get a surge out of it.

[nerdelemental]

And don't just use standard Warmachine terrain. Think buildings. Houses. Sheds. Obstructions.

[DireTrollJake]

Shhhh, you guys are gona give me something to fight against!

Thanks for all the suggestions, it not only discourages the player at a loss, but I really don't like feeling at any advantage. Hell, had I known that guild is the "easy faction" I probably would have chose a different one.

[mbowsher76]

You guys are giving me some pretty decent tips...I had all but given up on this faction....Thank you.

Edited November 6, 2009 by mbowsher76

[Isoulle]

Do yourselves a favor and put down what you think is way too much. Try for no more then 4 to 6" between each piece of terrain. Keep firing lanes down to 18" or less.

Perdita with Bullet Bending is not the powerhouse shooter that she is with a direct shot. -2Cb is actually quite big.

Give that a go and try hanging on to your cards a bit more.

Also with Ramos I almost always have him between 12 to 18" behind the lines. He frequently salvages under fire and summons spider after spider. I only move up when I need to get the Electrical Creation into range. I have actually stoked Ramos to summon two spiders in a turn. Don't worry about the fact that Ramos loses one spell casting action. Or cast arcing Screen even if it wont do any good if you can get a surge out of it.

Listen to this man, he speaks the truth!

Yeah, a good Ramos player will make his opponent fight a 50SS army as opposed to a 35 one. And all of it explodes... They just keep on coming....

[nerdelemental]

If you make it out in the next week or two you'll see how I set up a board and we'll talk about how they're different.

(I worry about the board layout at the 22nd event not being thick enough).

Another idea is that you could use some of my models, Bowsher, and I could run your Arcanists. I like switching armies when I'm playing a weak one to see if the problem follows the army. We can do that. Glenn/Maverickman is our resident Ramos expert and he does fine with him but I'd be the resident Marcus expert (and I don't do as fine with Marcus, but I can make it a game at least!) and we've got some up and comers with 'Tina, too, that might offer some insight.

Godspeed: yeah, I think Guild is among the overall easiest to learn. They're straight up damage. Kinda like Khador. Still tactical, but damage is damage and that wins the games, huh?

[DireTrollJake]

Yeh, regardless, it does still take a good player to pilot an army. I just don't like accusations of "you won because you were on autopilot" ala; Vlad, and what seems to be all of Guild+Lyllith too. Ah, oh well, I guess that's why I have my gremlins if someone really cries too much.

[paperbag4]

We usually play with lots of 5" area terrain spread about 3" apart. (Recently it's been a set identical to the one that Twilight Emporium is giving away at the tournament on the 22nd.) It really brings out the board-control elements in 'Tina, and does nothing to hinder the progress of my brother's arachnids, or of the Belles that I always seem to be fighting against.

I've no experience with Ramos, but with Tina I like 3 or 4 models with frozen heart to bounce spells out of, as well as either a Cerberus (my new favorite) or Acolyte for objectives that require more speed. Focus on using ice pillars and freeze over to cut off part of Godspeed's gang, and then eliminate them.

Are you focusing more on completing your objectives, or on attacking the opposing force? That's the part of the game that it seems to take my group the longest to get their heads around.

[knightdrake]

These guys are working to paint a rosey pic but true be you are in an uphill battle with your Arcanist against the others. You are either working with something slow or not as synergistic.

I've been working out Raspitina since GenCon and what has helped me is a mixed list. Rattler or Saber for fast engagement to tie up models. Next is just target priority to eliminate the models posing the objective threat and not necessarily offensive threat.

When you are still scratching your head then throw in the Convict gunslinger or use Killjoy from low crawling Hoarcat pride. Arcanist can make good use of Outcasts so start reviewing the choices.

It is going to be a rough road in the fight but concentrate on the objective. Keep them as safe as possible in the first three rounds then start burning SS in the remaining to lay down the damage.

Terrain was the issue starting out in the game group, got a bit better with density. But it is also working both ways. Be creative with the variety of the lists.

[mbowsher76]

Well two games with Marcus and tons of terrain last night and I am still in the same boat. I did get closer, but because I was holding high cards to try to defend myself, I was rarely hitting (especially Perdita). I at one point held 3 12s and a red joker and still did not stop Marcus from getting killed.

Discouragement continues.....