*vivid nightmares* in your opinion, should be improved?

[TeddyBear]

I was wondering, what do you think of "vivid nightmares"?

I just get the impression that after last errata the * lucid dream bonus action is really a lot less useful.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I ask: wouldn't it be better perhaps to put the cards put back into play by this skill perhaps at a precise number? for example 2/3 instead of half? (which are also rounded up at the moment, right?)

I would just like the old masters to stay on the same level as their new versions 

🤷

[TeddyBear]

** sorry, I wrote the question from the phone and it automatically translated what I had written previously into my mother tongue.

[Adran]

7 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

I was wondering, what do you think of "vivid nightmares"?

I just get the impression that after last errata the * lucid dream bonus action is really a lot less useful.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I ask: wouldn't it be better perhaps to put the cards put back into play by this skill perhaps at a precise number? for example 2/3 instead of half? (which are also rounded up at the moment, right?)

I would just like the old masters to stay on the same level as their new versions 

🤷

Vivid nightmares does make lucid dreams a lot less useful. That is exactly the point of it. The dreamer was seen as too powerful as building a deck of just severe cards apparently is good. ( rare and unlikely as well). 

As to why the ability isn't a fixed number, I don't know for certain, but since if you really went for it you could remove 10+ cards a turn, a fixed number that would stop that abuse would effectively make the action nearly pointless at the more normal levels seen in the game, so removing a percentage of the cards removed is a way that will make the action less efficient all round but still some use even if you only have a small number of uses from it each turn. 

[TeddyBear]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Vivid nightmares does make lucid dreams a lot less useful. That is exactly the point of it. The dreamer was seen as too powerful as building a deck of just severe cards apparently is good. ( rare and unlikely as well). 

As to why the ability isn't a fixed number, I don't know for certain, but since if you really went for it you could remove 10+ cards a turn, a fixed number that would stop that abuse would effectively make the action nearly pointless at the more normal levels seen in the game, so removing a percentage of the cards removed is a way that will make the action less efficient all round but still some use even if you only have a small number of uses from it each turn. 

Do you find that Vivid Nightmares could be improved?

I would have liked to know the opinion of the Dreamer's players. I proposed to bring back a fixed number of cards, just to improve the bonus actions of the crew. After all, if I don't always have to discard half of the removed cards but only 2/3 in turn, I will find myself without a deck of only severe cards. But the weak cards removed will at least be a little more. Or (but more complex to do) you could leave Vivid Nightmare as it is; but change Lucid Dream to something like:

"Reveal the top three cards etc etc. Then placing the remaining cards back in any order"

Mine are just crazy ideas eh, maybe professional players feel great with the Dreamer as it is now.

[LeperColony]

Personally, I would change the mechanic to be something like the following:

Each keyword model would have a +1 ability that said something like "after deployment, remove the top card of your fate deck from the game."

And Dreamer would have an ability like "Whenever the number of cards removed from the game exceeds the number of friendly Nightmare models in the game, select a removed card and place it in your discard pile" or some such (written on the fly, obviously language could be better).

So the number of cards that are removed from the game is fixed and tied to your keyword hires. But since the removed cards are random, Lucid dreaming would allow you to swap them, and summoning would increase the number of cards you can have out of the game. However, there's also counter play, as killing Nightmare models would allow you to force cards back in if there were already a max removed.

[Regelridderen]

The problem isn’t vivid nightmares, it’s Lucid Dreams. 

Rather than making the keyword ability useless, it would make more sense to revise it to something new.

[Thatguy]

4 hours ago, LeperColony said:

However, there's also counter play,

I think this is a big reason why people didn't like the old Lucid Dreaming. Because there was no counterplay. Killing models only slowed the pace of deck filtering, it didn't undo anything.

[TimH]

5 hours ago, LeperColony said:

Personally, I would change the mechanic to be something like the following:

Each keyword model would have a +1 ability that said something like "after deployment, remove the top card of your fate deck from the game."

And Dreamer would have an ability like "Whenever the number of cards removed from the game exceeds the number of friendly Nightmare models in the game, select a removed card and place it in your discard pile" or some such (written on the fly, obviously language could be better).

So the number of cards that are removed from the game is fixed and tied to your keyword hires. But since the removed cards are random, Lucid dreaming would allow you to swap them, and summoning would increase the number of cards you can have out of the game. However, there's also counter play, as killing Nightmare models would allow you to force cards back in if there were already a max removed.

While something along these lines would work with Dreamer1 the existance of Dreamer Insomniac prevents this specific fix. Now that Insomniac exists any rework to Lucid Dreams would have to take both dreamers into account. A one time removal at the start of the game wouldn't really work with Insomniac and would make his first turn very strange. Granted with his counting sheep trigger he would still be able to rebury himself but it would be a lot clunkier and make his activations very dull.

[LeperColony]

22 hours ago, TimH said:

While something along these lines would work with Dreamer1 the existance of Dreamer Insomniac prevents this specific fix. Now that Insomniac exists any rework to Lucid Dreams would have to take both dreamers into account. A one time removal at the start of the game wouldn't really work with Insomniac and would make his first turn very strange. Granted with his counting sheep trigger he would still be able to rebury himself but it would be a lot clunkier and make his activations very dull.

I'm not in any way saying my idea is THE idea, but while Dreamer2's first turn would be quite different, Lucid Dreams still works with him because under my suggestion it still sends cards out of game, it just doesn't increase the maximum number of cards you can have out of game.

To break it down:

• Each Nightmare model has an ability that removes one card from the game at the start of the game.
• Dreamer has an ability that caps the number of cards that can be removed from the game at the number of Nightmare models in his crew.
  • So losing models reduces the number you can have removed, summoning more increases the number.
• Lucid Dreams still removes cards from the game, but if you are already at the cap permitted by Dreamer, then you have to return a removed card to the discard pile.
  • Since after a Dreamer2 swap the removed from game cache is potentially empty (depending on the number of cards in the hand), Lucid Dreams could fill it again.

So for example, if you have five Nightmare models, then you remove five cards at the start of the game, and you can only have a maximum of five out of the game at any time. Lucid Dreams would allow you to cycle what's out, but not increase past five. However, once you've swapped your control hand once, if that number were less than five, you could keep adding to it with Lucid Dreams.

For instance, if you have a control hand of 0 and five out of play, you swap and now have 0 out of play. So when Lucid Dreams adds cards to the out of game area, the cards do not exceed the number of Nightmare models, and so remain out of play.

So two issues with Dreamer2 under such a system is yes, the first swap would be really odd. And second, if your opponent killed Nightmare models such that it was no longer possible to have five out of game, then Dreamer2 couldn't ever swap. Of course, Dreamer2's swap mechanic could be changed in response.

The benefits of such a mechanic include:

• There is a cap on the number of cards that can be removed, so Dreamer can't sculpt down to all severes
• Lucid Dreaming retains value because it allows the removed from game cache to be sculpted, and it also provides a mechanic to add to/replenish the removed from play cache if it is ever below the maximum permitted
• Opponents have counter play with the removed from game effect by killing Nightmare models (and reducing the number of permitted removed cards), whereas currently there isn't really any.
• It is possibly faster than figuring out which half to keep every turn for Dreamer1 (seems so to me, but if not many cards are out or if the player is quick in deciding, maybe not).

[TimH]

I see, I'd been under the impression that you were suggesting an ability that removes 1 card at the start of the game as a complete replacement for lucid dreams

[LeperColony]

Honestly it still works even if cards aren't removed at the start, but then it's more of a nerf I think, to tie the maximum number of removed cards to the number of Nightmare models.

[Mindbadger]

I guess it depends why you're changing the ability. Sure, it could be implemented better, the Vivid Nightmare ability was definitely implemented as an emergency stop to Lucid Dream being too powerful, but Nightmare isn't exactly a weak keyword. 

If they were struggling, then maybe it could be changed, but I think at this point, I'd prefer changes to focus on balance rather than flavour. Both would be ideal, but I'd prefer balance if I had to choose. Dreamer 2 makes good use of Lucid Dreams in a different way.

If you really want full power Lucid Dreams, you can always hire Widow Weaver or Chompy as your leader. Or suicide Dreamer 1 in on turn 1! (Use either of these methods at your own discretion...)

[LeperColony]

I just came in to spitball mechanics. I'm not sure it needs a change either, except for the fact that like many mechanics in Malifaux I find it would benefit from more counter play.

[TimH]

21 hours ago, Mindbadger said:

If you really want full power Lucid Dreams, you can always hire Widow Weaver or Chompy as your leader. Or suicide Dreamer 1 in on turn 1! (Use either of these methods at your own discretion...)

New Widow Weaver Crew (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 3
Leader:
  Widow Weaver
Totem(s):
  Mysterious Effigy
Hires:
  Coryphee Duet
  Intrepid Effigy
    Effigy of Fate
  Daydream
  Daydream 2
  Daydream 3
  Vasilisa
  Wicked Doll
  Wicked Doll 2
  Stitched Together
 

Maximum memes. Why meme with Lucid Dreams when you can do multiple dumb things at once!

[TeddyBear]

22 hours ago, Mindbadger said:

If you really want full power Lucid Dreams, you can always hire Widow Weaver or Chompy as your leader. Or suicide Dreamer 1 in on turn 1! (Use either of these methods at your own discretion...)

This thing really can't be heard. It has never been seen that to play an ability well I have to use a henchman as a master, or use the master like kamikaze ... this is just bad design.

Mindbadger, it's not an answer to you, I just quoted you. 🙏 Because I actually knew that certain players had begun to consider these "solutions". Only they seem to me a badly done expedient.