Passing

[Math Mathonwy]

I've been abusing Pass Tokens a bit lately and it kinda doesn't sit right with me. There are high stat Obeys and Pushes (even irresistable ones) that can deny some Strats way too effectively for my liking. Trying to score Leylines (or Covert Operations or Guard the Stash) can be almost impossible when the opponent can activate several disruption models after you. And I don't think that this was the point of Pass Tokens.

In M2e there weren't no Pass Tokens and there was a problem with buying lots of super cheap activations (Stuffed Piglets, Rat shenanigans...) and then activating all of your meaningful models once the opponent had already activated his whole crew and leaving them no room to answer. I feel that the Pass Tokens were meant to fix this but now, somewhat ironically, they've created this problem anew in some ways.

Now, there is naturally a cost to passing. On turn one it's pretty free and lets you set up optimally for turn two but there's no scoring (well, Leylines you could mark, but that was a special case) so it's normally not a huge problem. One the action turns passing naturally means that your opponent can kill your non-activated models thus removing your advantage so it isn't always worth it to pass but there's a bit of a snowball effect in that you can prepare for passing in the previous turn using Pass Tokens for an optimal setup. And you can naturally also use it passing to set-up perfect kills for the next turn since killing unactivated models is a such a giant swing.

That said, all in all I feel that the bigger problem is with denying scoring so it isn't an issue in every game.

Finally, it's worth mentioning that not all Pass Tokens are created equal. Youko is kind of a special case in that she was designed to abuse Pass Tokens and pays the price for that in effectiveness (or at least should) but outside of Youko things are a bit more problematic IMO.

What if you couldn't use Pass Tokens to pass unless your opponent had more unactivated models than you? Then they would solve the M2e problem still but wouldn't let you abuse them. And they would still be useful for the initiative bonus.

(Quite a few other skirmish games have this system where you can pass if your opponent has more activations than you. Another popular one is that you can pass any time you like but if both players pass, the turn ends. But this is quite a radical system and changes the dynamic of the game quite a bit.)

And maybe Youko could have a special rule that allows her to pass with Pass Tokens whenever she likes?

Do you feel that the use of Pass Tokens for stalling for multiple back-to-back activations at the end of the round is a problem? Or are things perfect the way they are now?

[Maniacal_cackle]

To clarify, are you worried about the base mechanic of pass tokens?

Or crews that make pass tokens like Brewmaster?

[Math Mathonwy]

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To clarify, are you worried about the base mechanic of pass tokens?

Or crews that make pass tokens like Brewmaster?

Oh, mostly stuff like Brewmaster. If you get Pass Tokens "normally" from having fewer models you cannot really abuse them to get back-to-back activations but if you can get them some other way (and especially if you can get two or more) then that I feel is a problem.

Good clarification - thank you!

[Maniacal_cackle]

12 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Oh, mostly stuff like Brewmaster. If you get Pass Tokens "normally" from having fewer models you cannot really abuse them to get back-to-back activations but if you can get them some other way (and especially if you can get two or more) then that I feel is a problem.

Good clarification - thank you!

Yeah, as a Molly player I really enjoy this activation control...

BUT I have to spend master AP, two cards, and a 4-6 stone hire per unit of activation control I get.

I do not at all like the level of 'free' activation control that came in MB, even though it wasn't *that* much.  Stuff like triggers for two pass tokens, enforcers making pass tokens, etc.

That said at least with Youko 2 it is the theme of the crew and as you say, they suffer in other ways.

Brewmaster is the one that really stands out xD 

Mah Tuckett has always been a bit of an issue, but since she needs a specific suit I find it is largely okay.

[Clement]

An I missing something, or is the entirety of Brewmaster pass token generation Shojo?

[James Dyson]

46 minutes ago, Clement said:

An I missing something, or is the entirety of Brewmaster pass token generation Shojo?

Nope, just Shojo.

[Math Mathonwy]

20 hours ago, Clement said:

An I missing something, or is the entirety of Brewmaster pass token generation Shojo?

Only Shojo, but she can pretty easily create half-a-dozen Pass Tokens on turn two which is kind of a frustrating experience for the opponent.

[Adran]

23 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Only Shojo, but she can pretty easily create half-a-dozen Pass Tokens on turn two which is kind of a frustrating experience for the opponent.

I've not played her, but that involves her winning 2 biting insults against un activated models and having 12 poison? It's certainly doable, but it sounds like you are spending quite a lot of resources on it. 

And surely any ability to gain pass tokens is largely going to be there to try and let you get first and last activation. It's not common, but there are several models that can do it. The advantage to playing against brewmaster trying to do it is that you know there is only 1 source of those tokens, so if you want to stop it, you just need to kill shojo. 

[James Dyson]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I've not played her, but that involves her winning 2 biting insults against un activated models and having 12 poison? It's certainly doable, but it sounds like you are spending quite a lot of resources on it. 

And surely any ability to gain pass tokens is largely going to be there to try and let you get first and last activation. It's not common, but there are several models that can do it. The advantage to playing against brewmaster trying to do it is that you know there is only 1 source of those tokens, so if you want to stop it, you just need to kill shojo. 

Shojos pass tokens are coming from Trade Secrets, not from Biting Insult.

Typically you are taking Have a Drink attacks targeting her while inside the Open the Gourd aura to let the hazardous poison +1 stack poison on everyone else (since she's immune to hazardous).

As a result, you can stay cagey and not leave your deployment turn 1 while loading her up with poison (or as I sometimes call it, 'pregaming') then move out with Tipsy Slide end of turn 1.

Going into turn 2, you then slow drip your poison to get just enough pass tokens to ensure last activation as needed.  Since it's able to go off at the end of every activition, you can choose to do it at just the right time.