Hot take - New book didn't do enough to unstagnate the previous game *

[ooshawn]

I feel like the game still fundamentally feels the same as it did a year ago. Honestly the errata made more of a difference than the book imo. should wyrd be changing models more often with direct app access? If not changing more often, than do more changes?

[Maniacal_cackle]

It feels very different to me.

Builds are entirely different. Faction matchups have been scrambled. The pregame is very different.

Why does it feel the same?

Also don't forget most players play less than 50 games a year, so there's also an argument that the game changes too fast.

[ooshawn]

I feel like I mostly just see the same masters, and those masters using the same models. Basically the stuff that was mediocre and not used before, is still the same. Then the stuff that was good and got the best toys is now on the scene, but it's still the same old stuff.  I don't feel like builds are different at all. Basically good stuff is still good, and bad stuff is still bad

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, ooshawn said:

I feel like I mostly just see the same masters, and those masters using the same models. Basically the stuff that was mediocre and not used before, is still the same. Then the stuff that was good and got the best toys is now on the scene, but it's still the same old stuff.  I don't feel like builds are different at all. Basically good stuff is still good, and bad stuff is still bad

Well, maybe ressers are a bit different but...

Reva's crew changed drastically drastically now lampads are super great.

Mcmournings keyword suddenly is super viable, with only one or two models not being too desirable.

Kirai, suddenly all the little minions are super valuable.

Seamus got a huge change in playstyle. Feels like a completely different master.

As some examples.

Although I do notice many players aren't adapting their lists to work with the new masters and just use the tried and true stuff.

But that is more about playerbase and meta than the changes.

[ooshawn]

Ressers are already amazing, literally all their masters are so good and fun. Neverborn is all the same stuff. Dreamer2 is huge, that's about it. Then a step below that is like nekima2/marcus2, then it just falls into obscurity. But nobody plays marcus1 over marcus2. Basically all the people that sucked before in neverborn are pretty much doing the same stuff. Ressers really aren't a fair comparison to neverborn.

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

Ressers are already amazing, literally all their masters are so good and fun. Neverborn is all the same stuff. Dreamer2 is huge, that's about it. Then a step below that is like nekima2/marcus2, then it just falls into obscurity. But nobody plays marcus1 over marcus2. Basically all the people that sucked before in neverborn are pretty much doing the same stuff. Ressers really aren't a fair comparison to neverborn.

Marcus 1 and Marcus 2 have entirely different styles, so I'd call that a big change.

Titania 2 makes autumn knights good, and also has a very different playstyle from 1.

Dreamer 2 might as well be from a different planet than Dreamer 1.

Zoraida 2 is a completely different dynamic than 1 with very different hires. 

Lucius2 again is just a completely different crew from 1.

Etc

So Neverborn got really changed up imo.

Although if your complaints are about power level that's a different issue.

[ooshawn]

No that's what i'm saying. They are totally different. all those masters still play the same they did before, same power level, same everything. Erymanthian boar didn't change titania or marcus. I haven't seen really anyone interested in titania 2. Seems like she is "coordinated strike, the master" for the most part.  I'm pretty much the only person I know that plays Z2 and that's only because I don't play Z1.  Still nobody plays lucius 1. Dreamer1 still takes all the same models. none of the crew compositions or power levels changed imo. you either got a good master and the crew works, dreamer2, or you got a mediocre master that was better before, and nobody plays the title, titania. None of the shared models in neverborn really made any differences. you take away marcus 2, and marcus1 is still the same crew from last year

[ooshawn]

I don't think a single one of the shared models was a big deal in neverborn off the top of my head

[ooshawn]

Euri2 - broken, so has play. keyword is still boring and wack

Euri1 - nobody plays, exact same as last year.  kaltgeist is talked about only when you bring euri up to shame him.

Marcus1 - weak, nobody plays, crew still the same as last year

marcus2 - shiny and new, slaps , people play him

Dreamer 2+dreamer both good, dreamer1 literally the exact same as last year. shared model just has no purpose in dreamer. amazing in asami

Titania - zero changes, titania2- people tried her and dropped her cus she's boring and nowhere near as strong as titania1

Pandora - nobody plays her , exact same master. pandora 2, only played because she can become almost unkillable, hand out fast +focus for free and gun down people from 10inches .

see what i'm saying? 

[ooshawn]

The new book didn't really do anything to change the old game, just added to it

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

The new book didn't really do anything to change the old game, just added to it

That's... What it was? It was an addition of new content xD

Errata and Gaining Grounds updates are the ones that actually change the game.

[ooshawn]

That's true, I had hoped with the shared models it would shake up the current stuff a lot more, but the shared models are all pretty mediocre. That combined with a really tame and limited errata, the old stuff is pretty stale

[ooshawn]

maybe my point and my wording don't really coincide that well

[ooshawn]

It's all good if you abandon ship and join the dreamer2 train, but if you are still trying to make molemen work, it's like your still in the same spot as when m3e came out. That's incredibly lazy in my book

[ooshawn]

I hate to even praise warmachine, But i'm pretty sure they changed damn near every unit in the game

[Azahul]

8 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

It's all good if you abandon ship and join the dreamer2 train, but if you are still trying to make molemen work, it's like your still in the same spot as when m3e came out. That's incredibly lazy in my book

Aren't Molemen more the exception than the rule? Pistoleros and Gaki weren't exactly hitting the table much before Malifaux Burns, now they are. Quite a lot of old models have new life with the new Masters.

[ooshawn]

I don't know statistically. I can only speak from neverborn's point of view. From my Side nothing like that really happened. Kirai2 is broken though, and nobody is really hiring gaki, just summoning them, because it's overwhelmingly easy to do so. same with pistoleros. neverborn didn't really get anything like that, except maybe pandora2 summoning, but even that's kind of eh. They took a really lackluster approach of just making bad models summonable in a few cases from what I could tell

[ooshawn]

I almost knew pandora2 was gonna summon due to how bad I felt woe minions were. I was like, these are literally only good if you could pay for them with a card and a AP. I even said it in discord before they previewed her

[Azahul]

3 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

I don't know statistically. I can only speak from neverborn's point of view. From my Side nothing like that really happened. Kirai2 is broken though, and nobody is really hiring gaki, just summoning them, because it's overwhelmingly easy to do so. same with pistoleros. neverborn didn't really get anything like that, except maybe pandora2 summoning, but even that's kind of eh. They took a really lackluster approach of just making bad models summonable in a few cases from what I could tell

Being summonable is a blunt force solution, but at least they see play. Not every model has to be worthwhile both as a summon and a hire. So long as there is at least a reason to own a model, I am both happy and deeply impressed. Very few games come even close to having that on every model in their stable.

 

At most I think there are 2-3 low cost models in each faction that never see table time after Malifaux Burns. Hopefully they see some attention in the next errata, and then we can put this particular bugbear to bed and start complaining about all the high cost models people never hire...

[ooshawn]

They just need to take the riot games approach where they put limits on what they wanna see. Something in league has a 54+ percent win rate, automatically triggers a team meeting to assign a small nerf, nothing changes, next patch another nerf. Same with under a certain percent.  I think if you look at stuff in tournaments, the app, what people are saying. you can put together a list of dozens and dozens of models that are just functionally dead at every ss value

[Azahul]

There is absolutely no way for Wyrd to collect accurate enough data on the level of League of Legends, let alone with their small team respond promptly with updates to the game, and tournament results represent tiny sample sizes with little in built weighting. Most players I know aren't exactly diligent about recording final results in the app, they just talk out Turn 5 and call it a day, so app data isn't going to be all that reliable. League of Legends is such an order of magnitude greater than Wyrd in terms of player base, resources at their disposal, and is purely digital so the vagaries of the fleshy meatspace don't need to infringe on the data so much. And, frankly, while I've never played it I do know that despite all those advantages it still doesn't seem to be highly regarded as a good game.

 

I'm not saying Wyrd should give up on making improvements, but within the context of tabletop games what they have achieved is remarkable. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

47 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

They just need to take the riot games approach where they put limits on what they wanna see. Something in league has a 54+ percent win rate, automatically triggers a team meeting to assign a small nerf, nothing changes, next patch another nerf. Same with under a certain percent.  I think if you look at stuff in tournaments, the app, what people are saying. you can put together a list of dozens and dozens of models that are just functionally dead at every ss value

League of Legends was at one time the biggest video game on the planet. I imagine their design team is larger than Wyrd's entire staff xD

56 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Being summonable is a blunt force solution, but at least they see play. Not every model has to be worthwhile both as a summon and a hire. So long as there is at least a reason to own a model, I am both happy and deeply impressed. Very few games come even close to having that on every model in their stable.

 

At most I think there are 2-3 low cost models in each faction that never see table time after Malifaux Burns. Hopefully they see some attention in the next errata, and then we can put this particular bugbear to bed and start complaining about all the high cost models people never hire...

Yeah frankly I think it is incredible that there is so much diversity in Malifaux.

I chalk it up to the Malifaux objective system and pregame as to why so many models are viable.

[SEV]

So Ooshawn, did you drink fermented sheep milk too ! 🤣

As a NB player, I disagree with pretty much all of your statements.

Obviously it's really hard to have 2 titles with even power level. In tournament/competitive meta their will be a tier ranking that will naturally take place. This is normal... 

The titles did enough to change that tier ranking. They also makes some crew more viable in tourney. For the already powerful masters they tried to give some niche to the titles (Mama Z, Ophelia). For the less powerful one they went for something stronger (Lucius)... Fortunately, most of the title don't completely overshadow their original (Euri and Raspy are probably the exception, but their OG version were really weak).

Also, remember that Wyrd have to design for all their player base, bot just competitive player. Burn is a huge change! 

 

[Azahul]

Am I weird in that I think OG Euripides still looks solid? He was always a Master that seemed to draw a handful of true believers who could really make him work, whereas new Euripides looks rather easier to get good results from.

[ooshawn]

I honestly don't think Lucius2 is stronger  than lucius1. I actually  think he's objectively  worse. But the point is it didn't mix up the old crews. Lucius1 still uses the exact same models .

People will defend Euri all day. Nobody will show you a YouTube video where euri is beating axel on Tara tho. Or legislat on any guild master. That's really  all I can say. People will defend stuff all day long but have no examples. It's all just opinion. Which is my whole post btw.