Timing on card discarded during duels

[le_wahou]

I am not sure of the timing with aura of courage from intrepid emissary and chronicle (innocence) from Tannenbaum

You flip a card and check the TN while in an aura of courage and chronicle (innocence) range. if beat the TN by 2+, you get a heal from the aura of courage. As you get a heal, you can send the top card from your discard to the top of your fate deck.

At this moment, is the card from conflict already sent to discard ? Do you place the card that was used in the conflict back to the top, or is this card still in conflict and you send the top from discard, then discard the card from conflict ?

[Adran]

I think the heal from the intrepid happens before you resolve the effect from the duel, as it is set off by passing the duel, which should be completed before you go onto the next step of the resolution process, which would be when you discard all cards from the conflict. 

To an extent, I would rule it this way to avoid the multiple use of 13s, even though I could see arguments both ways. 

[solkan]

So, here are the effects in play:

Quote

Aura of Courage

Until the End Phase, after a friendly model within range passes a duel by 2 or more, if that duel was a simple duel or an opposed duel with an enemy model, the friendly model may Heal 1.

and

Quote

Chronicle (Innocence)

Once per Activation.  After another model within 6 Heals, this model may place the top non-Joker card of the Healed model's Discard Pile onto the top of its owner's Fate Deck.

The duel is performed in Step 4 of the action, and the outcome of the duel is determined at Step F of the duel.  Going through the flip process, the Conflict and discard pile rules, the sequence of events should end up being (no attempt being made to have these sequence numbers match the book's step numbers...):

1. the player flips one or more cards into the conflict
2. one of the cards in the conflict is chosen, the rest (if any) are placed on the discard pile
3. if the duel is cheated, the card in the conflict is discarded and a different card is put in its place
4. eventually, Step F is reached and the player(s) determine the duel's success
5. the duel has been resolved.  Now, it's "after the duel has been resolved", and the card in the conflict is discarded after the duel has been resolved

I think Adran's hypothesis is that Aura of Courage goes off right after Step F, before you're done resolving the duel (and thus before you discard the card in the conflict).

The problem with that hypothesis is that it allows a situation to occur where the conflict is being used by multiple duels or flips at once.  Here's one of them:

• Flip succeeds by 2
  • Aura of Courage
    • Chronicle (Seclusion) pushes the Healed model into hazardous terrain
      • The pushed model is a soul stone user and performs a damage prevention flip

Or, more excitingly:

• Flip succeeds by 2
  • Aura of Courage
    • Chronicle (Servitude) pushes a Moorwraith and it ends in engagement range of Seamus (starting there or not)
      • Seamus's "Why Hello Love" ability goes off
        • An opposed duel takes place
          • ...

So, which is worse?

• Filling the conflict with the cards for potentially many flips and duels at the same time
• Chronicle(Influence) being part of a combo where you can snag and re-use a card once per activation

I personally prefer the version where there aren't any nested duels possible in the game.  

[Adran]

10 hours ago, solkan said:

The problem with that hypothesis is that it allows a situation to occur where the conflict is being used by multiple duels or flips at once.  Here's one of them:

• Flip succeeds by 2
  • Aura of Courage
    • Chronicle (Seclusion) pushes the Healed model into hazardous terrain
      • The pushed model is a soul stone user and performs a damage prevention flip

Or, more excitingly:

• Flip succeeds by 2
  • Aura of Courage
    • Chronicle (Servitude) pushes a Moorwraith and it ends in engagement range of Seamus (starting there or not)
      • Seamus's "Why Hello Love" ability goes off
        • An opposed duel takes place
          • ...

So, which is worse?

• Filling the conflict with the cards for potentially many flips and duels at the same time
• Chronicle(Influence) being part of a combo where you can snag and re-use a card once per activation

I personally prefer the version where there aren't any nested duels possible in the game.  

I'm fairly sure that anything that causes a new flip automatically clears the conflict, so its not quite as bad as it seems.

And for the second one in particular, the opposed duel from Seamus won't happen until the whole of the effect that the original duel is resolved as new actions aren't resolved during current actions anyway (page 34). 

And for the first one, Hazardous terrain doesn't happen until the end of the action/ability, which, based on the FAQ for Scamper, means that it won't resolve until there are no more actions or abilities resolving, (section 2.11)

 

So neither of those examples would cause a flip to occur before the action itself resolves, so they aren't getting a card into the conflict any earlier anyway (There may well be some combinations that would, the damned and a soulstone user ougth to), but I think if you need the conflict it clears because you are at another step now anyway. 

[santaclaws01]

16 hours ago, solkan said:

Flip succeeds by 2

• Aura of Courage
  • Chronicle (Seclusion) pushes the Healed model into hazardous terrain
    • The pushed model is a soul stone user and performs a damage prevention flip

 

Hazardous terrain doesn't happen until after the action or ability is resolved, and we know from the scamper FAQ that if an ability gets fully resolved within an action that would generate and "after the current action or ability resolves" effect, the effect doesn't happen until the action is resolved as well. So there's no way for hazardous to resolve in the middle of resolving a duel.
 

16 hours ago, solkan said:

Flip succeeds by 2

• Aura of Courage
  • Chronicle (Servitude) pushes a Moorwraith and it ends in engagement range of Seamus (starting there or not)
    • Seamus's "Why Hello Love" ability goes off
      • An opposed duel takes place
        • ...

 

Actions generated by effects will never resolve in the middle of another action.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

In a previous thread about Misaki's Abandon Honor and discard timing, the consensus was that the card in the conflict is discarded before the Action's effect takes place. I do not think that would differ for any effect which is generated after a successful duel.

[solkan]

46 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

In a previous thread about Misaki's Abandon Honor and discard timing, the consensus was that the card in the conflict is discarded before the Action's effect takes place. I do not think that would differ for any effect which is generated after a successful duel.

The effects of an action only occur after the duel has been resolved.  That isn’t the same thing as saying that the effects of the action have the timing “after resolving a duel” (as implied or defined in the ability timing rules).

Just like if you have something like “Target suffers 2 damage and is pushed 1””, the push isn’t simultaneous with “after suffering damage” effects.

 

[Adran]

resolving the effects of the action occurs in a different step to that of working out if you have won the duel. Things that happen based on the duel would resolve in the step when you are resolving that step.  So it's totally fine that the outcomes are different, because they are different timings that they happen.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

19 minutes ago, Adran said:

resolving the effects of the action occurs in a different step to that of working out if you have won the duel. Things that happen based on the duel would resolve in the step when you are resolving that step.  So it's totally fine that the outcomes are different, because they are different timings that they happen.

I’m not saying that Action effects and effects like Aura of Courage are resolved at the same time. Merely stating that they both occur after a duel is fully resolved, at which point the card in the conflict has already been discarded. Conflict states “once a rule is resolved”. If you want to treat discarding the conflict cards as an effect (which doesn’t seem right to me), I think “once” is about the same as “immediately”. Even if you disagree with that, at most the Aura of Courage and conflict discard would be simultaneous effects since both are after the duel resolves.

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I’m not saying that Action effects and effects like Aura of Courage are resolved at the same time. Merely stating that they both occur after a duel is fully resolved, at which point the card in the conflict has already been discarded. Conflict states “once a rule is resolved”. If you want to treat discarding the conflict cards as an effect (which doesn’t seem right to me), I think “once” is about the same as “immediately”. Even if you disagree with that, at most the Aura of Courage and conflict discard would be simultaneous effects since both are after the duel resolves.

The question is does Aura of Courage wait to resolve until after the duel is fully resolved or not. All it says is "after ... passes a duel". That could mean it happens the instant after determining the outcome but before the duel is actually considered resolved, or it could wait to happen until after a duel is fully resolved in which the model in question succeeded.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

11 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The question is does Aura of Courage wait to resolve until after the duel is fully resolved or not. All it says is "after ... passes a duel". That could mean it happens the instant after determining the outcome but before the duel is actually considered resolved, or it could wait to happen until after a duel is fully resolved in which the model in question succeeded.

I suppose that is a fair point. Though it essentially boils down to “do you think passing=succeeding?” when framed that way. I would be firmly in the “yes” group since the rules do not provide game definitions for passing and succeeding.

[santaclaws01]

5 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I suppose that is a fair point. Though it essentially boils down to “do you think passing=succeeding?” when framed that way. I would be firmly in the “yes” group since the rules do not provide game definitions for passing and succeeding.

No it doesn't? It boils down to does the ability resolve after determining success or after the duel. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

No it doesn't? It boils down to does the ability resolve after determining success or after the duel. 

A successful duel is a resolved duel, I think we agree on concept but not wording. I think the “after” portion hints more towards a completed duel, after resolving and after suffering damage resolve in the following step of what triggers them. I know this is different and lacks a specific following step for resolution, but the trend of “after” effects for all other rules is very consistent. If Aura of Courage was “when passes a duel by 2+”, I think I would agree that resolution would be prior to discard.

[santaclaws01]

10 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

but the trend of “after” effects for all other rules is very consistent

You're right, it is. But in this case we do know know specifically what the after is referring to. It could be referring to step E, in which case Aura of Courage would resolve while the duel is still being resolved, or it could be referring to the duel as a whole.

[Adran]

10 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

A successful duel is a resolved duel, I think we agree on concept but not wording. I think the “after” portion hints more towards a completed duel, after resolving and after suffering damage resolve in the following step of what triggers them. I know this is different and lacks a specific following step for resolution, but the trend of “after” effects for all other rules is very consistent. If Aura of Courage was “when passes a duel by 2+”, I think I would agree that resolution would be prior to discard.

But a duel and an action are different things. The duel is a part of the action process, but the duel is clearly over before you resolve the effects of the action that required you to take a duel. 

During the Resolving of an action (p 23), performing a duel is step 4, so I would apply any "after a duel" things at the end of step 4, but before progressing to step 5. That is consistent with all other after things that don't add extra information. After damaging effects apply after damage occurs but before you go to the next part of the action for example. Clearing the conflict is not so clearly defined, but I would also do so after completing the Performing a duel step. You could argue each way as to which should be first, its not clear, but I would stick with my previous answer for the reasons given.