Price of Progress, Suit of Choice Timing

[Mac_Atk]

Interesting game last week againt Anya.  My well read opponent stated that when declaring to use of Price of Progress to add suit of his choice, he did not have to declare WHAT suit until after the final duel total is determined. I thought that was damned good and have finally gotten back to a rulebook and noticed naming does not specifically call out when the suit is named [soulstone or otherwise].

Question: When is the soulstone added [modified] suit have to be named?

Main Rulebook,Duels [pg10]

Step A: Modify the Duel

Step D: Determine Final Duel Total

Sometime else?

[solkan]

57 minutes ago, Mac_Atk said:

My well read opponent stated that when declaring to use of Price of Progress to add suit of his choice, he did not have to declare WHAT suit until after the final duel total is determined.

Your opponent has no leg to stand on for this claim.  In order to resolve the effect, you have to choose a suit.  You do that when you take the damage.

The effect says “After this model declares an action”, so it’s going to be in step 1 of the action sequence.

[Doomikov]

Why would he immediately have to declare a suit upon declaring use of Price of Progress? This is similar to the use of Chi. When used the +2 is not added until determine dual total step despite being declared after flipping and before cheating. If a monk with df 5 flips a 6 he says he is at 11. After cheating he would then declare 13 (assuming he didn't cheat). Price of Progress says add a suit to final dual total. Wouldn't it be at this stage that the suit would be declared? Price of Progress would say to choose a suit immediately and then add it to the final dual total if he had to declare it when declaring its use. 

[Adran]

7 hours ago, Doomikov said:

Why would he immediately have to declare a suit upon declaring use of Price of Progress? This is similar to the use of Chi. When used the +2 is not added until determine dual total step despite being declared after flipping and before cheating. If a monk with df 5 flips a 6 he says he is at 11. After cheating he would then declare 13 (assuming he didn't cheat). Price of Progress says add a suit to final dual total. Wouldn't it be at this stage that the suit would be declared? Price of Progress would say to choose a suit immediately and then add it to the final dual total if he had to declare it when declaring its use. 

Just out of interest do you play that the suit added by a soulstone isn't declared until the determine final duel total section as well? 

I agree with Solkan, there is no wording in the ability that suggests you don't choose the suit at the point you pay for the ability. And so as a default you choose the suit when you pay for the ability. 

And the first point at which you add suits is in step B, before you cheat. Doesn't make a huge difference to this question (i believe), but if you are convinced that you can add it at the latest possible time, then it still needs to be added before any cheating occurs. 

 

[Doomikov]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Just out of interest do you play that the suit added by a soulstone isn't declared until the determine final duel total section as well? 

I agree with Solkan, there is no wording in the ability that suggests you don't choose the suit at the point you pay for the ability. And so as a default you choose the suit when you pay for the ability. 

And the first point at which you add suits is in step B, before you cheat. Doesn't make a huge difference to this question (i believe), but if you are convinced that you can add it at the latest possible time, then it still needs to be added before any cheating occurs. 

 

So I've always played it you announce suit when you declare ss or in this case Price of Progress. I'm just playing devils advocate.

Why would it default to announcing your chosen suit when SS is spent? Nowhere does it say you must immediately announce suit when using a ss. Only under Step D Determine Final Dual Totals does it to add additional suits. So why does it default to announcing suit? 

Actually suits are not added in step B. Only modifiers are added at this Step and only positive a negative flips are modifiers. That's under Fate Modifiers under Using Cards in the rulebook. In Step A you declare the use of a ss for a suit, but once again it does not implicitly state you must declare the suit at this time. The only time in the entire process it says you must add in the suit is Step D. 

 

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, Doomikov said:

So I've always played it you announce suit when you declare ss or in this case Price of Progress. I'm just playing devils advocate.

Why would it default to announcing your chosen suit when SS is spent? Nowhere does it say you must immediately announce suit when using a ss. Only under Step D Determine Final Dual Totals does it to add additional suits. So why does it default to announcing suit? 

Actually suits are not added in step B. Only modifiers are added at this Step and only positive a negative flips are modifiers. That's under Fate Modifiers under Using Cards in the rulebook. In Step A you declare the use of a ss for a suit, but once again it does not implicitly state you must declare the suit at this time. The only time in the entire process it says you must add in the suit is Step D. 

 

Step B: Flip Fate Card
Any models involved in the duel perform a flip. This flip may be affected by Fate Modifiers, as described below. If either player was affected by one or more + or - Fate Modifiers, those apply now. Any player with a + Modifier may choose which card they wish to use (the Active player chooses first).
Any player with a - Modifier must choose the lowest value card to use. Players add their stat, the value of the flipped card, and any suits to determine their current duel total. Players must inform their opponent of their current duel total.

Step D : Determine Final Duel Total
Players then add their stat, the value and suit of the card in the Conflict, and any additional suits or modifiers together to determine their final duel total. Players must inform their opponent of their final duel total.

Page 10, sections B and D. (I've bolded part).

Notice the difference in wording? You could argue that they mean you should add the suit of the card only in step B, but that's not what it says there ( and is what it says in step D). 

In general in the game when the game asks you to do something, it does all the choices at that time unless otherwise stated (at least as far  as I can think of, I can't think of any examples that work the way you are arguing). 

[Doomikov]

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

Step B: Flip Fate Card
Any models involved in the duel perform a flip. This flip may be affected by Fate Modifiers, as described below. If either player was affected by one or more + or - Fate Modifiers, those apply now. Any player with a + Modifier may choose which card they wish to use (the Active player chooses first).
Any player with a - Modifier must choose the lowest value card to use. Players add their stat, the value of the flipped card, and any suits to determine their current duel total. Players must inform their opponent of their current duel total.

Step D : Determine Final Duel Total
Players then add their stat, the value and suit of the card in the Conflict, and any additional suits or modifiers together to determine their final duel total. Players must inform their opponent of their final duel total.

Page 10, sections B and D. (I've bolded part).

Notice the difference in wording? You could argue that they mean you should add the suit of the card only in step B, but that's not what it says there ( and is what it says in step D). 

In general in the game when the game asks you to do something, it does all the choices at that time unless otherwise stated (at least as far  as I can think of, I can't think of any examples that work the way you are arguing). 

Step A : Modify the Duel

Before any cards are flipped, a model that can use Soulstones may spend a single Soulstone to recieve a positive to its flip or add a suit of its choice to its "final duel total."

 

That adds to final duel total not current duel total as you pointed out in Step B. Only in Step D would you add the suit from Step A. And nowhere in Step A does it say you must declare the suit at this time. 

Anything that adds to a Final Duel Total works the way I'm pointing out. Chi, Yan Lo's Fortify the Spirit, Pass Tokens on Initiative flips, etc. All of those add to final duel total. None add to current duel total. If an opponent asks your monk that used chi what his current total is, you simply add their stat to flipped card. Chi is not a factor at that point according to the rules. Only after cheating does the Chi come into play because it specifically mentions final duel total. Just like using a SS or Price of Progress. 

[Adran]

Price of progress does not mention final duel total. 

You appear to be having two separate arguments that aren't really connected although you are trying to connect them for some reason. 

The first, of when you choose the suit, is separate to when you add the suit to the duel.

A soulstone doesn't add a suit until you calculate the final duel total (which occurs both in step D, and later again in Step F because you might have changed it) because that's what it says. 

Price of progress adds to the duel total, and Step B talks about adding suits to the duel total. Price of progress adds a suit to the duel total, so surely it should apply here. 

If you were to think that the suit isn't chosen until you have to apply it, then the suit from price of progress should be chosen for step B, because that is a duel total and the rules tell us that this duel does look for extra suits (even though it won't include the soulstone gained suit because that specifies final duel total). 

 

[Doomikov]

So for Price Of Progress its added in Step B and for a SS is added in Step D? But only during those steps you have to declare the suit then? 

[Adran]

15 minutes ago, Doomikov said:

Anything that adds to a Final Duel Total works the way I'm pointing out. Chi, Yan Lo's Fortify the Spirit, Pass Tokens on Initiative flips, etc. All of those add to final duel total. None add to current duel total. If an opponent asks your monk that used chi what his current total is, you simply add their stat to flipped card. Chi is not a factor at that point according to the rules. Only after cheating does the Chi come into play because it specifically mentions final duel total. Just like using a SS or Price of Progress. 

Also, Initiative flips work differently. They are not a duel. Do not try and apply the duel rules to them. Pass tokens do not add to the final duel total because you do not generate a final duel total because it is not a duel. Pass tokens do not add to the card you flipped because the rules tell you to cheat before you add the number of pass tokens to your value.

If you are going to talk about fine details, then you need to be precise. 

likewise the Chi is more complicated than you suggest. If it mentioned final duel total it would be helpful to avoid the rules question about when the Chi applies. It doesn't mention final duel total, but only the section on calculating the final duel total mentions checking for other modifiers, of which Chi would be 1. 

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Doomikov said:

So for Price Of Progress its added in Step B and for a SS is added in Step D? But only during those steps you have to declare the suit then? 

I believe when you spend the stone/take the damage to add the suit, you pick the suit then. SO I would choose the suit in Step A for soulstone even though its not applied until step D, likewise for price of progress it happens before the duel process, it would happen after step 1 of the resolving actions step, and step 4 is perform a duel (page 23)

[Doomikov]

I apologize. I was going off of another post in regards to chi being added to final duel total. I see now that both Price and Chi add to total which is determined in Step B.

[Adran]

Just now, Doomikov said:

I apologize. I was going off of another post in regards to chi being added to final duel total. I see now that both Price and Chi add to total which is determined in Step B.

That is a whole other rules question, which I'd rather avoid dragging this discussion into because the arguements as to when you actually apply Chi are different to when you apply the suit, and in all honesty when you apply the suit doesn't really matter, when you choose the suit does matter.

 

[Doomikov]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

That is a whole other rules question, which I'd rather avoid dragging this discussion into because the arguements as to when you actually apply Chi are different to when you apply the suit, and in all honesty when you apply the suit doesn't really matter, when you choose the suit does matter.

 

I believe that was the original question. When do you choose the suit for a SS? Step A doesn't implicitly state to declare in it which suit you are adding to your final duel total only that you are adding a suit of your choice to the final total. Step D says to add in any additional suits so you obviously have to declare it at that point. So do you tell opponent in Step A or Step D which suit you've chosen? 

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, Doomikov said:

I believe that was the original question. When do you choose the suit for a SS? Step A doesn't implicitly state to declare in it which suit you are adding to your final duel total only that you are adding a suit of your choice to the final total. Step D says to add in any additional suits so you obviously have to declare it at that point. So do you tell opponent in Step A or Step D which suit you've chosen? 

It wasn't quite the original question but its at least one that I would give a similar answer to.  And the answer is as follows

EDIT - now I re-read the actual initial question and you are right that is the question. I got to focussed on the topic title, which is asking something different to the question in the first post.  Fortunately my answers are the same. 😳 

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I agree with Solkan, there is no wording in the ability that suggests you don't choose the suit at the point you pay for the ability. And so as a default you choose the suit when you pay for the ability. 

 

1 hour ago, Adran said:

In general in the game when the game asks you to do something, it does all the choices at that time unless otherwise stated (at least as far  as I can think of, I can't think of any examples that work the way you are arguing). 

 

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

I believe when you spend the stone/take the damage to add the suit, you pick the suit then. SO I would choose the suit in Step A for soulstone even though its not applied until step D, likewise for price of progress it happens before the duel process, it would happen after step 1 of the resolving actions step, and step 4 is perform a duel (page 23)

[Doomikov]

15 minutes ago, Adran said:

It wasn't quite the original question but its at least one that I would give a similar answer to.  And the answer is as follows

EDIT - now I re-read the actual initial question and you are right that is the question. I got to focussed on the topic title, which is asking something different to the question in the first post.  Fortunately my answers are the same. 😳 

 

 

Just want you to know that this is how I play it as well. I'm all for open information as it makes for a better play experience.

 

As written though, it can be interpreted either way. Nowhere does it say that you must declare which suit you are adding with a soulstone until Step D. A minor errata to say duel total instead of final duel total would fix this as it would be during Step B with the current duel total. Unless having hidden information is the intended result, which I highly doubt. 

[Rufess]

Quote from the Soulstones section, this reads to me that player has to choose the suit before flipping.