first game of dreamer review(edit +1 game this morning)

[ooshawn]

I guess to start things off I should explain what has shaped my experience, about 10 games of nekima, 10 of lucius, few euri, few pandy. in that order roughly with a little overlap. The first thing I'll say is that I was very sleepy when i played this game so this experience may have been .....not entirely accurate. thankfully my opponent was very knowledgeable about dreamer and the game progressed very easily. I took Dreamer , 2x dreams with pact, serena, teddy, widow weaver, and .... something else. will edit later.  My first impression was, why are all these models so fast, it's awesome. I forget to do lucid dream most of the time, but I could see how it's very strong. I love that I can hold a card for my stitched and pull out lowbies.  Just playing this crew after lucius, I never found myself asking, you know "why doesn't this model do this, do that, why's it's stat this, why no trigger for this " etc. Everything just felt good/appropriate. 

Dreamer- well.......He's not immortal any more so there's that, but still hard to kill. I think I kind of miss the chompy slingshot, but I never played that, so why do I miss it? kind of strange mentality, but I wish it an option. He's fun. I liked him better as a kid, but what can you do. He's got dope abilities, he doesn't immediately strike me as .. oh this is the guy that makes this overpowered. But he doesn't leave me asking for better anything yet. he just is what he is I guess. I don't feel any one way about him. edit ( I didn't realize when someone fails a wp test that you're summons come in any where on the board. I was like...... holy S. THAT"S AWESOME. I have trouble imagining a turn one summon though. Someone said double push + serena. sounds iffy.

Chompy- wasn't this guy a ghost at one time? I expected this whole crew to be incorporal , oh well. He's LCB what can I say. Feels good to get a strong totem I guess. Idk, he just is what he is after 1 game. 

Serena- I've used this model about five times. This model is obviously a bandaid for the faction. This model is just too good. Like I can't even pretend this model isn't out of control. she does everything and is impossible to kill  . I like that she exists, but I'm not the type of person to use something like this and just be okay with that.

Widow weaver - this model is incredible. I absolutely love this model. thematically, it's rules, everything. This model when I used it gave me such a feeling of just "wow, this is so cool and fun". SHE TELEPORTS 12 INCHES FOR FREE and can Throw you through space and time into a web six inches away . Has terrorize (love) and can summon stitched. Just absolutely makes me fall in love with this crew.  Maybe strong, maybe not. I have no clue.

coppelius - I have no idea what to do with this guy. he just doesn't do anything for me. I wouldn't want to try to 1v1 another scheme runner hunter with him. But he seems like he could run down a garbo scheme runner pretty well.  I like that he is fast and a octopus. I like him thematically. 

teddy- I tried him and did away with him for bandersnatch and quite frankly i'm so glad I did. to me teddy just feels like , I mean he's dope but....  Idk just kind of uninspiring. maybe it's because I haven't slept. He's obviously good. I just think bandersnatch is just so much more fun by comparison. thinking about it now, I'd probably replace copp with teddy. not too sure though. Teddy and copp are the two I feel most , "eh, whatever" about.  

Bandersnatch - I never in a million years thought I would play this model in second edition or third. This model is STUPID FUN to play with. Like, I genuinely feel a twinkle of happiness when I attack someone with this model from inside a model or they attack it and miss. So incredibly dope.

Daydreams -  Whatever models. good thematic filler I guess with utility. probably amazing for their points. not too sure. I use 2 to carry APs for card draw. 

Stitched - This model is ridiculously fun to play with. Cheating in that card from Out of the game is awesome. Like, Idk, you really can't ask for anything more from this guy. he just is good. 

Insidious madness - this model is a enigma to me. I can't tell if it's just a tech piece for focus or if it has another purpose. Looks like it's just made to take away focus. No clue. I know I own three of these and I love the sculpt, so there's that at least. 

Alp - I own 3 of these and I swear to god I never thought these would ever hit the table in the decade or however long i've played this game. Yet here we are. These little guys are awesome. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Glad you're enjoying it.

You keep mentioning as Chompy slingshot. What was that, and how is it it different from Chompy's current teleport on Dreamer?

[ooshawn]

if I remember correctly, and I don't.... You could like double walk on dreamer move 7 or something. Hit the go button and throw chompy at something immediately activating taking like 6 attacks, counting onslaught. And then I THINK chompy had a trigger that REburied him. So he went from really far away to like eating you. That's probably a poor interpretation. I'm sure someone will chime in and correct me. In first edition it truly was a actual sling shot, take that same idea, but instead of dreamer ending up ...whatever distance he was away 6, melee , whatever. he was like the original distance away. an actual sling shot. That shit was not fun. The 2nd edition I felt okay with. Nobody even did it, because summon dreamer was so bonkers. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, ooshawn said:

if I remember correctly, and I don't.... You could like double walk on dreamer move 7 or something. Hit the go button and throw chompy at something immediately activating taking like 6 attacks, counting onslaught. And then I THINK chompy had a trigger that REburied him. So he went from really far away to like eating you. That's probably a poor interpretation. I'm sure someone will chime in and correct me. In first edition it truly was a actual sling shot, take that same idea, but instead of dreamer ending up ...whatever distance he was away 6, melee , whatever. he was like the original distance away. an actual sling shot. That shit was not fun. The 2nd edition I felt okay with. Nobody even did it, because summon dreamer was so bonkers. 

Oh yeah, chain activations were toned way down this edition, probably because there's basically no counterplay to a chain activation so you want to use them sparingly.

Still, though, Dreamer can teleport chompy in this edition and that feels like more than enough. I tended to use him as a backline defender against scheme runners. This kept him safe early game, and then Dreamer could teleport him once my opponent gave up on scheming.

[ooshawn]

I gotta be honest I need to look at his card real fast

[ooshawn]

You're nightmare?

[ooshawn]

That would be so dope if I knew how to get activation control, but I feel like i'd use that, and then my opponent would "use" my LCB

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

That would be so dope if I knew how to get activation control, but I feel like i'd use that, and then my opponent would "use" my LCB

Imagine your opponent send Archie off down your left flank by himself, and activates him early (because he needs to use the mask now).

Dreamer can walk, walk, Your Nightmare into Lord Chompy Bits.

Now at worst Chompy gets a Crooligan to the face, while Chompy gets to eat Archie alive. Since Dreamer presumably has a summon as well, that's actually two models in base contact with Archie.

Or replace Archie with any other model that likes to strike off on his own, like the Damned hunting Symbols or whatever.

[ooshawn]

this will require some more contemplation ...... I must return to my laboratory

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, ooshawn said:

this will require some more contemplation ...... I must return to my laboratory

If two good players are playing each other, it may never come up (because the opponent will play to avoid exposing models to it). But the mere fact your opponent is altering their play pattern so you can't use the ability has an effect.

Of course, since you generally only need to pull it off once per game, often you will find a window amongst those dozens of activations.

[Regelridderen]

Insidious Madness are the Tarpits and Healers of the crew. Stat6 vs Wp heals everyone engaged, while Terrifying and Incorporeal just drain resources. Add to this Mv6 and you’ve got a very versatile model. 

Coppelius is also extremely versatile. Scheme runner, schemer hunter, extremely disruptive when he pulses out slow, while healing all your Nightmares around for 2. And don’t forget to run around and spook your own models if they’re in a wrong position or need a boost. 

Teddy is amazing if you need a beater. Trouble is everything in Nightmare is there to beat up your opponent. I like him better in Woe, where he and Kade feed off each other. 

Serena is a crutch. I generally avoid taking her, the rest of the crew is much more fun and do fine without her. 

The spider duo are game Winners - but in a funnier way than Serena.

-

A good OOK model is Candy. Plenty of WP- attacks. And great for thing the opponent down for the Nightmares yo kill. 
 

-

Oh and you can’t place your summons everywhere. Only in base contact with the model failing the WP test. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Agree on Insidious Madness, they're the best summon in my book. Tarpit + situational scatter is just awesome (although I played before Stitched could summon others with a willpower attack).

Teddy's best attack in Nightmare crews is the Terrorize ability IMO. I'd rate Terrorize as the best WP attack in the faction for the crew. It does everything you want to - slows down the game by pushing the opponent back, and then unburies a summon to tie them down further. It is even better than obey (because obey unburies the summon before the enemy moves away). Very good for when you just want to control an area (like the centre).

For me, Nightmare crew is the only place I always take Serena. She synergises with the crew so well.

WW and Bandy are super powerful AND fun, I take them every chance I get xD WW also has Terrorize but the ability to position better for it, so that's major points.

[ooshawn]

Yeah I really enjoy that duo, it's absurdly fun. 

I do like teddy with pandy more I think.

Serena I want to see nerfed, just so there is like...design space to grow ya know? but I'm kind of done talking about game balance, cus reasons. 

I'll try out insideous madness. I just don't see how these people are getting stuff out turn one reliably. Doesn't make sense. 

I'm also very confused on what I should be summoning and when. And Quite frankly not having a cheat sheet for the summon breakpoints on cards, is real annowing. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, ooshawn said:

I'll try out insideous madness. I just don't see how these people are getting stuff out turn one reliably. Doesn't make sense. 

I'm from a different era (played Dreamer in GG0), but in my mind if combat isn't happening turn 1 with Dreamer I'm pretty happy. Generally combat is happening because the opponent is rushing you, becauase they know they need to secure the win quickly. So summoning turn one is pretty easy.

Often I'd go into turn 2 with buried models, though. Sometimes you may even see a situation where an unbury isn't worth it, and it is better to keep the summon 'in reserve.' 

With Dreamer, I go for aggressively controlling the board rather than aggressively attacking my opponent.

3 minutes ago, ooshawn said:

I'm also very confused on what I should be summoning and when. And Quite frankly not having a cheat sheet for the summon breakpoints on cards, is real annowing. 

This just takes tons of practice, because realistically every summon is so darn good that you're willing to do it.

In general...

• Turn one, you're happy using potentially even your highest card to really get the summon engine rolling.
  • A 14 gets a madness + daydream, a 13 a stitched + daydream, 12 an alp + daydream, 11 a madness, 10 a stitched, 9 an alp, 7 a daydream (I never do just a daydream).
• After that, I'm generally looking to use a few of my high cards for other tasks, so it will be my second or third highest card that gets used for summons.
  • Sometimes your highest card is a mask, and then you have to weigh up whether it is worth the summon or not.

I was a bit of a weird Dreamer player, though. I never felt the need to go all-in on lucid dream or summoning, figuring that if I summon models turns 1 and 2 and start the game with 4 lucid dreams a turn, I'm probably going to have a strong enough late game. I usually focused on a solid early game to snowball into a stronger late game.

[Roadhouse]

I like Hinamatsu as an outside hire, I think she has the best chance of a T1 summon, Spd6+Rush2+Lure 12 and she can stone for a plus to overcome concealment. Additionally she is Arm 2 vs a defensive tech that is circumvented by Ruthless, which your opponent likely brings based on all the terrifying.

Between Lucid and Lead Nightmare Daydreams are probably the most absurd 3pt nontotem in the game.

Teddy is a stat 6 min 3 with flurry is backed up by a lot of out of activation movement and brings more of that himself in "I've got your back". Between Terrifying, Arm 1, Regen 1, and a built in trigger to heal on kill he is also tough to remove. 

Alps are terrible hires but amazing summons.

Stitched are overtuned.

Madnesses are 7wds with Incorp and an unresisted push, amazing.

Coppelius is stat 7 3/5/6 with a push, has an out of activation movement for friendlies, mv 7, Regen, Terrifying, and Feed on Fear. I love this model.

Carver, imo, is the only "bad" model in the keyword and its only because he has a very narrow niche(Focus opportunist and Ruthless) and competes with Teddy in the beat down role.

Dreamer is hands down the best master in Neverborn and is in the same tier as Schtook, Colette, Somer, and Yan Lo.

[Roadhouse]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I usually focused on a solid early game to snowball into a stronger late game.

Scary Terry (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  The Dreamer
    Ancient Pact
Totem(s):
  Lord Chompy Bits
Hires:
  Daydream
  Daydream 2
  Coppelius
  Teddy
  Serena Bowman
  Hinamatsu

This has been my standard list and it can play any pool really. It starts with 3 lucid dreams and it doesn't take much to get more. Ive found that I dont do much summoning past T2 and Dreamer converts to scoring points.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Roadhouse said:

Scary Terry (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  The Dreamer
    Ancient Pact
Totem(s):
  Lord Chompy Bits
Hires:
  Daydream
  Daydream 2
  Coppelius
  Teddy
  Serena Bowman
  Hinamatsu

This has been my standard list and it can play any pool really. It starts with 3 lucid dreams and it doesn't take much to get more. Ive found that I dont do much summoning past T2 and Dreamer converts to scoring points.

I'd consider that list as starting with 4 in many cases, since your summoned model can lucid dream if you wish (just has to forego an action).

[ooshawn]

You all got me all hyped up to try him out again and I haven't slept since wednesday

[ooshawn]

Do people take IR on LCB or just use positioning to make him do work and stay safe

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, ooshawn said:

Do people take IR on LCB or just use positioning to make him do work and stay safe

My priority for upgrades was always double Ancient Pact.

Daydreams can reposition Chompy, so I generally relied on that rather than IR.

If anything I'd prefer IR on Serena Bowman while she is claim jumping, making her even more unkillable xD

[Roadhouse]

Only upgrade I take is on Dreamer and its AP. When you stone for a summon and flip the BJ its a bad time. 

After a point your deck, via Lucid Dreams, keep you safe.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I personally don't rate AP on Dreamer at all. I'm not sure I've ever black jokered his summon on turn one - it is only a 1/54 chance.

After that, it isn't game-breaking to lose a summon every so often. For any given game, it is very unlikely to happen anyway.

[santaclaws01]

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm not sure I've ever black jokered his summon on turn one - it is only a 1/54 chance.

Oh well look at mister "My Decks don't hate me and actively conspire against me to ruin any key once per activation/turn effects". Just rub it in why don't cha

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

Oh well look at mister "My Decks don't hate me and actively conspire against me to ruin any key once per activation/turn effects". Just rub it in why don't cha

I find it helps to laugh at your own black jokers/opponent's red jokers where possible.

They start to think "oh shit, this dude is crazy, let's stay away from him!"

[Regelridderen]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For me, Nightmare crew is the only place I always take Serena. She synergises with the crew so well.

Oh don’t get me wrong. Serena is amazing in Nightmare. She’s such a force multiplier. I mainly avoid her to allow the rest to shine 😊