Design mistakes in individual profiles

[Mycellanious]

I'll say it, I dont think Spark's Pack with Explosives action was meant to be used primarily on Friendly Models. I think the intent was to put it on enemies, Push them into position, and try to blow them up onto their friends. I think not restricting it to Enemy Only was possibly unintentional

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I'll say it, I dont think Spark's Pack with Explosives action was meant to be used primarily on Friendly Models. I think the intent was to put it on enemies, Push them into position, and try to blow them up onto their friends. I think not restricting it to Enemy Only was possibly unintentional

I had assumed Bayou of all factions should be attacking their own guys, but I don't know anything about the model.

[Jesy Blue]

6 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I'll say it, I dont think Spark's Pack with Explosives action was meant to be used primarily on Friendly Models. I think the intent was to put it on enemies, Push them into position, and try to blow them up onto their friends. I think not restricting it to Enemy Only was possibly unintentional

Why do you believe that?  There are other midgame upgrades that give your own models an explosive Demise. 

Also, the wording on the FAQ seems to acknowlede putting it on enemy models.

[Adran]

10 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Why do you believe that?  There are other midgame upgrades that give your own models an explosive Demise. 

Also, the wording on the FAQ seems to acknowlede putting it on enemy models.

I would assume that the unexpected bit was the blast marker placing.

That said, its wording about always being placed by Sparks makes the most sense if you expect it to be put on your own models, and giving enemy models Demise explosive is quite risky. 

And it seems a very gremlin defence to me. "You can't hit me, I'll explode at you if you do". 

I think if it wasn't expected to be used on friendlies it wouldn't have had a TN to reach. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just found another one tonight.

Dead rider's triple crow bonus action allows him to take a melee action within 6" and LOS.

But unlike the other versions of this ability (like on Hooded Rider), it does NOT ignore range. So in effect it only lets him attack within 2".

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just found another one tonight.

Dead rider's triple crow bonus action allows him to take a melee action within 6" and LOS.

But unlike the other versions of this ability (like on Hooded Rider), it does NOT ignore range. So in effect it only lets him attack within 2".

I must admit I have always read that as altering the range of the attack action to 6" for that 1 attack. That wording wouldn't work with the multiple attacks of the hooded.  (this might be because previous editions did similar things, so its built into my expected malifaux, and not strictly the rules as the new editon writes them, I'm not sure.)

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

26 minutes ago, Adran said:

I must admit I have always read that as altering the range of the attack action to 6" for that 1 attack. That wording wouldn't work with the multiple attacks of the hooded.  (this might be because previous editions did similar things, so its built into my expected malifaux, and not strictly the rules as the new editon writes them, I'm not sure.)

 

Yeah, I'm not sure either!  "Ignoring range" is used on tons of other abilities, and the ones where it doesn't say "ignoring range" seem clear cut meant to use range. This one is an oddity and I can't find identical templating with "ignoring range" added in.

EDIT: although the steps for an attack include checking range and LOS iirc, so the attack would fail once you start it?

[Ogid]

20 hours ago, Adran said:

I honestly don't know what the true cost should be, and I don't actually expect it to change, I was spit balling a number that I would probably start at if I was going to test it. 

Toshiro costs 9 not 10. And for the comparison, Kirai can only use her protected on her summons, unless you have other ook hires, she is going to be doing 9 damage to her self during the game from her summons, she is limited to having 3 out, rather than 5 for Toshiro.

Most of her summons play off the Urami keyword (at least in that they give out Adversary and such like) so they are probably slightly below normal power levels.  I don't think its quite as crazy an amount as it first sounds. 

But a few other comparisons, The cheapest natural 3 AP model is 9ss. (Bishop). The Sow, at cost 8 can summon 3 piglets a turn, as it can have 3 AP.  

Summoners are good, but a lot of their value is tied to that summoning action, and hiring her not as leader lowers the value of the action. 

Some masters have leader only things, but not all masters. That suggests to me the reason is more about preventing crazy combinations than the thing possibly being "too good" for the game. (Although things like lowering the rare value of upgrade levels is probably to lower the power of the model when taken ook).

IDK… mixing non-master could actually mud this point, Iggy is a 6SS model that can get fast for example, but neither of those models could bring its SS cost on models on top of being an SS user plus all the good stuff of a master.

I should make clear I don’t know if that ability is too much or not, It was on my radar before and I was actually quite surprised with the amount of aggression Maniacal cakle was able to put on that game versus plaag so it raised some questions for me; also the fact that he is advocating for the change is telling. But at the end of the day I don’t have experience with or versus it; now that combo got some attention I guess other players will emulate it and developers will look into it, so whatever is decided (even if it's keeping it as it is) it’s fine by me.

But what I’m disagreeing is the idea Kirai’s cost is tied to that ability as a second master pick. It’s maybe my experience with other masters, but Asami and Dreamer for example are also 2 master that rely heavily on their keywords and are worth every single SS as OOK picks without getting a double summon the first turn and an almost free totem to sweeten the deal. 

Also I don’t think she is that bad, She does take damage from her summons, but she has Life leech and protected; so she has the tools to generate her own healing; her summons are generating healing for the leader and that could also free the healer to patch her in case of need (plus GSK, but if she gets an upgrade she will probably get TW; Intuition is very good on summoners)

Isn’t “crazy combinations” another way to say “too good”? XD. I don’t see what crazy combinations come from Tara getting 5 AP or Pandora messing with activations other than being over the top abilities that developers don’t want outside of the keyword for being too good. It’s good that masters get some over the top things, but it's also good to keep double master power on check imo.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

 

I should make clear I don’t know if that ability is too much or not, It was on my radar before and I was actually quite surprised with the amount of aggression Maniacal cakle was able to put on that game versus plaag so it raised some questions for me; also the fact that he is advocating for the change is telling.

 

One thing to note is that was a pool specifically tailored to favour the hyper-aggressive double summon to counter Plaag's elite list (with irreducible thrown in).

But that aside, yeah, it feels pretty bonkers, but haven't played it enough times to fully call for a nerf. So far, out of the crews I've played, I have called to nerf three of them (and never called to errata my opponents stuff). So I may have an overly rosy view of my own stuff xD

That said, Molly & Kirai OP, etc etc xD

[Adran]

36 minutes ago, Ogid said:

But what I’m disagreeing is the idea Kirai’s cost is tied to that ability as a second master pick. It’s maybe my experience with other masters, but Asami and Dreamer for example are also 2 master that rely heavily on their keywords and are worth every single SS as OOK picks without getting a double summon the first turn and an almost free totem to sweeten the deal. 

Isn’t “crazy combinations” another way to say “too good”? XD. I don’t see what crazy combinations come from Tara getting 5 AP or Pandora messing with activations other than being over the top abilities that developers don’t want outside of the keyword for being too good. It’s good that masters get some over the top things, but it's also good to keep double master power on check imo.

Both Asami and Dreamer can get a double summon on the first turn. (Their summon action isn't limited to 1 model).  You can certainly argue about the value of using all your available upgrades on the first turn, and that Kirais second summon is upgrade free so bypasses her restriction and how they affect the power levels. 

A masters cost is tied entirely to what they will bring to the game if they are hired out of keyword. From what I have read about Maniacal's game, the ability to Summon in her totem was a strong part of what she did and why she was hired. Removing that would have a fairly strong effect on her power levels. So, on the assumption that she is currently correctly costed, if you lowered that power somehow, then she ought to either get stronger elsewhere (but not in a way that makes her better as a leader), or she should be cheaper.  (of course if she is too powerful then that's a different story. But this thread wasn't intended to be a list of things that were overpowered, but rather things that didn't work as they ought to. )

 

Sometimes crazy combination can mean too good. But just because the 2 abilities combined might be too good, does not mean that the individual abilities are too strong. You can have Pandora messing with mood swings outside of the keyword, (at least within the faction) by having her hire OOK. But perhaps there was a combination with a bayou swampfiend or a guild elite model that just worked too well. It may not even exist any more.

Back in the dim and distance past (First edition) there was Brawls, which allowed 2 masters in a crew. In general this was crazy power level, the worse combination was Ramos and Colette because Ramos could hire a totem that added tomes to a duel and Colette had a trigger that required 3 tomes (and this was in the day when spending a soulstone flipped a card to add to your duel, rather than adding a fixed suit). It was a slightly crazy trigger in the first place-you replaced the enemy model with your manniquin, but kept in check by the fact you could never guarantee it going off. In the brawl format this totem, that I believe was introduced because Ramos generally could never summon because it was too card intensive for what he got, suddenly helped turn the game upside down.  (Granted the brawl format was almost exclusively a game for friends because it didn't seem all that balanced in the first place, almost like M:TG Alpha, where I heard of tournaments where there was a separate section for decks that could win turn 1, and they competed by seeing which could go off the most often)

So I don't know why any particular ability is Leader only, but they can't be "too good" on their own, or they shouldn't be in the game at all. I suppose they could be "too good without warning" . If you have announced Tara as your leader, I know I'm going to lose activation control and can hire accordingly. If you could just hire her in your crew later, then I can't react to that. (Not a great example I know, as there are a few other models that can do similar tricks). 

[Jesy Blue]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

I would assume that the unexpected bit was the blast marker placing.

That said, its wording about always being placed by Sparks makes the most sense if you expect it to be put on your own models, and giving enemy models Demise explosive is quite risky.

It was worded that way because if Sparks dies, that part of the model stops working... but the Demise part still operates.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, Adran said:

 

Sometimes crazy combination can mean too good. But just because the 2 abilities combined might be too good, does not mean that the individual abilities are too strong. You can have Pandora messing with mood swings outside of the keyword, (at least within the faction) by having her hire OOK. But perhaps there was a combination with a bayou swampfiend or a guild elite model that just worked too well. It may not even exist any more.

That's a good point. Kirai isn't nearly as reliable if you can't look at 12-15 cards for her summon.

EDIT: note Pandora's mood swings is a leader only ability.

[Ogid]

9 hours ago, Adran said:

Both Asami and Dreamer can get a double summon on the first turn. (Their summon action isn't limited to 1 model).  You can certainly argue about the value of using all your available upgrades on the first turn, and that Kirais second summon is upgrade free so bypasses her restriction and how they affect the power levels.

Haha, good one; but you know I wasn't refering to that. There is a reason a double Akaname rush isn't a thing.

9 hours ago, Adran said:

A masters cost is tied entirely to what they will bring to the game if they are hired out of keyword. From what I have read about Maniacal's game, the ability to Summon in her totem was a strong part of what she did and why she was hired. Removing that would have a fairly strong effect on her power levels. So, on the assumption that she is currently correctly costed, if you lowered that power somehow, then she ought to either get stronger elsewhere (but not in a way that makes her better as a leader), or she should be cheaper.  (of course if she is too powerful then that's a different story. But this thread wasn't intended to be a list of things that were overpowered, but rather things that didn't work as they ought to. )

That's fair, but that's the asumption that we were working out, that maybe she wasn't correctly costed / the double summon is too powerful. The atempt to balance her reducing her points put her in an usuitable range for a master with her tools and being a better summoner OOK than IK doesn't seem intended (which is the point of the thread)

But anyway, as said above, I'm no RES expert; I was just jumping in the banwagon to put out a few thoughts; as said above I think being a summoner it's advantage enough without geting also an extra summon in turn 1; but I could be wrong.

9 hours ago, Adran said:

So I don't know why any particular ability is Leader only, but they can't be "too good" on their own, or they shouldn't be in the game at all. I suppose they could be "too good without warning" . If you have announced Tara as your leader, I know I'm going to lose activation control and can hire accordingly. If you could just hire her in your crew later, then I can't react to that. (Not a great example I know, as there are a few other models that can do similar tricks). 

Maybe there are a few of them restricted for potential OP combos, but I don't think all of them are... In the Tara's case for example there is a lot of ways to hire models OOK that generate pass tokens and mess with activation control that the other player cannot react to.

It always surprise me the amount of over the top things that were in the game in old editions... Replacing models for a mannequins lol.

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Dead rider's triple crow bonus action allows him to take a melee action within 6" and LOS.

But unlike the other versions of this ability (like on Hooded Rider), it does NOT ignore range. So in effect it only lets him attack within 2".

Comparing both, it seems like an overlook; there is no point of specifiying the 6'' range if he can't ignore the mele range.

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's a good point. Kirai isn't nearly as reliable if you can't look at 12-15 cards for her summon.

EDIT: note Pandora's mood swings is a leader only ability.

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear. If the "combination" was Pandora with Killjoy (for example) that was a problem, then Leader Pandora could just hire Killjoy out of keyword. So making Mood swings leader only stops combining it with non neverborn models that the other master could hire in, because you can already combine it with any neverborn model. 

 

12 hours ago, Ogid said:

Haha, good one; but you know I wasn't refering to that. There is a reason a double Akaname rush isn't a thing.

Weren't you? As far as I could see the rest of the conversation was. The original point was about the action efficiency of summoning 2 models on the first turn. Both of the masters you mentioned are capable of summoning 2 models on the first turn when hired out of keyword. 

My point was it was very strange to say that kirai was more efficient because she could summon a model in the first turn that normally she would have started with for free. For a fixed definition I agree that does make her more efficient, I was just arguing that the definition wasn't really that useful, because actual game play shows its considered more efficient to start with the model than summon it.  

She isn't the only master that gets to summon her totem, but she is the one that gets the most for her totem summon. So I do think that when hiring her as a non leader, it is an important consideration. 

12 hours ago, Ogid said:

That's fair, but that's the asumption that we were working out, that maybe she wasn't correctly costed / the double summon is too powerful. The atempt to balance her reducing her points put her in an usuitable range for a master with her tools and being a better summoner OOK than IK doesn't seem intended (which is the point of the thread)

 

As I said, I don't know if the range is right. The current cheapest Master is 11ss (Viks and Jacob). So 10 isn't quite as wild as it first sounds. (Jacob can summon but it isn't anywhere near as likely). 

I would be very surprised if in any game where Kirai was used OOK, the plan wasn't to summon her totem on the first turn. (It won't always happen but I would expect it to be the plan if possible). 

You may well be right, 10ss (so really 11) for a 3 action model that can have to 2 summoned models in play at a time may be too cheap. But in context of what you would currently get from her, I think the removal of the ability to summon Ikiryu unless you hired her, justifies about that sort of level of price drop.  

 

12 hours ago, Ogid said:

It always surprise me the amount of over the top things that were in the game in old editions... Replacing models for a mannequins lol.

😉Of course, looking from first edition perspective, knowing you were going to be able to get a trigger or have the right suit for a summons would also seem over the top, as would the ability to summon without needing to remove a counter of some kind from the game. It was rare a summoner Knew they were going to be able to get their summon action to work. 

Doing any damage flip on anything other than a negative accuracy flip was almost unheard of. (Focus existed, but it didn't carry past your activation, and it took your whole activation to charge which only got you 1 attack).

So its a bit swings and roundabouts, over all the newer edition is more consistent in its power levels, but there are still crazy things.

[Maniacal_cackle]

25 minutes ago, Adran said:

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear. If the "combination" was Pandora with Killjoy (for example) that was a problem, then Leader Pandora could just hire Killjoy out of keyword. So making Mood swings leader only stops combining it with non neverborn models that the other master could hire in, because you can already combine it with any neverborn model. 

Ah, Zoraida is a good example of this. Her big OP combo is providing scrap markers for Widow Weaver, and can do that by hiring across keywords.

25 minutes ago, Adran said:

Weren't you? As far as I could see the rest of the conversation was. The original point was about the action efficiency of summoning 2 models on the first turn. Both of the masters you mentioned are capable of summoning 2 models on the first turn when hired out of keyword. 

I guess an unspoken part of it in my mind was that it is tons of AP, and extremely high quality AP (all the AP can be Goryo and Ikiryo if you want, or mixed in Drowned, etc).

25 minutes ago, Adran said:

My point was it was very strange to say that kirai was more efficient because she could summon a model in the first turn that normally she would have started with for free. For a fixed definition I agree that does make her more efficient, I was just arguing that the definition wasn't really that useful, because actual game play shows its considered more efficient to start with the model than summon it.  

The issue is that you're not just comparing having the model to start vs. summoning it. You're looking at:

• Crew 1, which has Kirai OOK + 49 stones + someone else's totem.
  • 49 stones including the master who hired her.
• Crew 2, which has Kirai IK + 50 stones of models + her totem.

In either case, you've got ~50 stones of models + a totem + Kirai. So looking at what summoning Kirai is doing regardless of the other 50 stones + totem is reasonable.

(Of course you can argue that Kirai's totem is stronger than say Necrotic Machine, but I don't think that is the case, particularly when you can summon Kirai's totem. Looking at that setup, even if I had the option of taking Ikiryo over Machine, I'd take the machine).

All that said, I think it fair to say perhaps it doesn't qualify really as a design mistake, or is borderline at least xD Certainly taking away Kirai's ability to summon Ikiryo OOK would effectively kill her off as a second master potentially.

25 minutes ago, Adran said:

She isn't the only master that gets to summon her totem, but she is the one that gets the most for her totem summon. So I do think that when hiring her as a non leader, it is an important consideration. 

Just out of curiousity, who else does it? I've only experience with ~5 of the summoners or something.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Just out of curiousity, who else does it? I've only experience with ~5 of the summoners or something.

Zoraida, Reva, Colette, Sonnia, Sommer from the top of my head. I know they mostly aren't summoning masters, but they can get their totems for "free" when hired as a second master

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Adran said:

Zoraida, Reva, Colette, Sonnia, Sommer from the top of my head. I know they mostly aren't summoning masters, but they can get their totems for "free" when hired as a second master

Oh true, I guess those technically count. I even main Reva atm and didn't think of her xD

For all those masters, I tend to think of their totems as walking markers rather than models, but Zoraida being able to summon her totem OOK is super powerful so is a good point.

[Ogid]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:06 AM, Adran said:

Weren't you? As far as I could see the rest of the conversation was. The original point was about the action efficiency of summoning 2 models on the first turn. Both of the masters you mentioned are capable of summoning 2 models on the first turn when hired out of keyword. 

My point was it was very strange to say that kirai was more efficient because she could summon a model in the first turn that normally she would have started with for free. For a fixed definition I agree that does make her more efficient, I was just arguing that the definition wasn't really that useful, because actual game play shows its considered more efficient to start with the model than summon it.  

She isn't the only master that gets to summon her totem, but she is the one that gets the most for her totem summon. So I do think that when hiring her as a non leader, it is an important consideration.

We were talking pass each other then... With "Double Summon" I was refering to summon 2 expensive models (7+ cost) that the summoner can't summon on just 1 activation. You are right summoning 2 cheap models the first turn it gives those summoners good "AP" efficiency; but the power of the models is also a factor. It's not only the AP gain but the ability to summon 16SS worth of powerful beaters in a turn where weakening the hand isn't that big of a deal most of the time.

Actually one of the other master that can summon the totem got a price increase (and colette needs 1 SS or the rider to summon them, so not sure if she counts)...

But anyway, It was a comment after watching that game; It feels strong but I don't have experience with it so I'm not saying it's broken (or at least broken enough haha). I was just commenting on the ways to "fix" it proposed before. In the case that ability got nerf batted, I wouldn't like her losing the ability to bring 3 summons because it's one of the things that make her different; I'd rather either her paying a bit extra for the privilege of doing that the first turn or staggering the summons over the game a bit.

On 10/23/2020 at 11:06 AM, Adran said:

😉Of course, looking from first edition perspective, knowing you were going to be able to get a trigger or have the right suit for a summons would also seem over the top, as would the ability to summon without needing to remove a counter of some kind from the game. It was rare a summoner Knew they were going to be able to get their summon action to work. 

Doing any damage flip on anything other than a negative accuracy flip was almost unheard of. (Focus existed, but it didn't carry past your activation, and it took your whole activation to charge which only got you 1 attack).

So its a bit swings and roundabouts, over all the newer edition is more consistent in its power levels, but there are still crazy things.

Wow, The game has changed a lot. I see it with my M3E only eyes, but that help me to understand a bit some opinions of older edition players about the Focused changes or complains about cheaper models. It's good the balance is getting better other time tho (but I agree, the balance is good enough, but still far from perfect)

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Wow, The game has changed a lot. I see it with my M3E only eyes, but that help me to understand a bit some opinions of older edition players about the Focused changes or complains about cheaper models. It's good the balance is getting better other time tho (but I agree, the balance is good enough, but still far from perfect)

M3 is the Focus edition. I saw more focus in 6 months of this edition than the 10 years of the previous 2 combined. I hope it does help explain why you had different views to others in the Focus thread. 

 

16 minutes ago, Ogid said:

We were talking pass each other then... With "Double Summon" I was refering to summon 2 expensive models (7+ cost) that the summoner can't summon on just 1 activation. You are right summoning 2 cheap models the first turn it gives those summoners good "AP" efficiency; but the power of the models is also a factor. It's not only the AP gain but the ability to summon 16SS worth of powerful beaters in a turn where weakening the hand isn't that big of a deal most of the time.

Actually one of the other master that can summon the totem got a price increase (and colette needs 1 SS or the rider to summon them, so not sure if she counts)...

I have too many hands that don't contain two 10+ cards to rely on summoning two good things in a turn, so I don't automatically assume Kirai is going to get two 7+ models in a turn. Plus my most common opponents are aggressive by nature, its rare that combat is not happening first turn. (Even if combat doesn't happen in the first turn, you are seriously weakening your second turn hand, which is rarely considered). 

Its my Metric - Colette counts as a master that can summon her totems. 😉

There are also 5 masters that have a "big" "totems".  Dreamer, Kirai, Sandeep, Jacob, Vik. (obviously by which I mean if you hire them as a leader you get a 6+ ss model for free)

3 of these 5 have low costs. 1 of these 5 can summon in their big totem if they don't get it for free. So there is only 1 case of a model that gets a "big totem" for "free" that isn't cheaper than most masters when you don't get that for "free"

Should you remove Kirai summoning Ikiryu if she isn't a leader then she should probably be cheaper than the dreamer, who costs 12. I think we're quibbling over fractions of a ss. My "around 10" did mean 10-11 ish. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

12 minutes ago, Adran said:

I have too many hands that don't contain two 10+ cards to rely on summoning two good things in a turn, so I don't automatically assume Kirai is going to get two 7+ models in a turn. Plus my most common opponents are aggressive by nature, its rare that combat is not happening first turn. (Even if combat doesn't happen in the first turn, you are seriously weakening your second turn hand, which is rarely considered). 

I agree this is a factor often not considered, but also the really brutal combinations look at 12-15 cards a turn (Molly + Kirai + whisper, Dreamer + Zoraida with inconsistent use of the redraw, etc).

First turn combat (or securing objectives) is another big factor.

But I feel that is a smaller factor now that you can't secure several objectives in advance like you could with Plant Explosives and Turf War. Late game presence ends up mattering more than it did last season.

One issue with calling for nerfs of course is we have no idea what the objectives are next season, which are a big factor.