On the Move versus Pine Box

[Vangerdahast]

Just needing a confirmation about timing:

 

A Ronin has been pined box by a Death Marshal. At the tbeginning of the Ronin's next activation what takes precedence?

 

Ronin: On the Move: At the start of this model's Activation, it may move up to 3", ignoring other models

 

Pine Box: When the target Activates, it must attempt a TN 13 Wp Duel.

 

Are "at the start of this model's activation" and "when the target Activates" the same timing? In this case the Ronin could choose the order to resolve these two effects.

 

Or which effect takes precedence?

 

[Ogid]

I'd say all those effects have to resolve in the step C1 of the activation phase; different abilities having different wordings is a bit annoying sometimes but I don't see another step where either of those is supposed to trigger.

When 2 of those happen at the same time, then you have to use the rules for simultaneous effects (pg34). TLDR, the Ronin's player may decide the order (so he could chose unbury, then move)

[solkan]

As a reminder the FAQ says:

Quote

If during Step 1 of a model’s Activation (pg. 21 - resolving Start of Activation effects) if it would be affected by a new Start of Activation effect (such as by moving into another friendly model’s Healing Draughts’ A) does it resolve the new effect?
a) No. Effects that resolve when a model Activates in Step 1 (such as On the Move, Life Leech, Goad Witchling, etc.) are

generated at the start of Step 1 before resolving any effects. If a model would generate another effect that would normally resolve during this step, the effect is not generated.

Going down that list:

• Life Leech:  "When an enemy model starts its Activation..."
• Goad Witchling:  "Friendly Witchling Minions that Activate within ..."
• On the Move:  "At the start of this model's Activation..."

The FAQ is saying that those are all Step 1 effects.  Pine Box's "When the target activates" has to be the same timing as Goad Witchling.  

[Vangerdahast]

24 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I'd say all those effects have to resolve in the step C1 of the activation phase; different abilities having different wordings is a bit annoying sometimes but I don't see another step where either of those is supposed to trigger.

When 2 of those happen at the same time, then you have to use the rules for simultaneous effects (pg34). TLDR, the Ronin's player may decide the order (so he could chose unbury, then move)

 

Two players asked me the question yesterday and I came to the same conclusion as you.

Just wanted to check.

 

If other people can confirm or point out what could lead to a different interpretation.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

The FAQ sheds a lot of light on this.

To paraphrase: at the start activation step, you generate all relevant effects, then resolve them in order.

In this case they'd be simultaneous (as long as both are effects for the Ronin), and the Ronin controller would decide which order to do them in.

So start activation, unbury, move.

There is a slight wrinkle in that I'm not 100% sure if models can generate abilities when buried, but would have to check the bury rules for that.

[LeperColony]

I believe the model would be allowed to use On the Move.  Step B says:

"The Active Player Activates a model that has not yet Activated this Turn."

Since Pine Box's unbury effect is "when the target Activates," this takes place in Step B.  On the Move is resolved in C1, during the subphase for "At the Start of Activation" effects.

So you resolve Pine Box first, then move to Start of Activation effects.  Note, this is one instance where the old "if I unbury in Hamelin's aura, do I get a token" would result in a yes.  Because when you enter the Start of Activation, you're in his aura.

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I believe the model would be allowed to use On the Move.  Step B says:

"The Active Player Activates a model that has not yet Activated this Turn."

Since Pine Box's unbury effect is "when the target Activates," this takes place in Step B.  On the Move is resolved in C1, during the subphase for "At the Start of Activation" effects.

So you resolve Pine Box first, then move to Start of Activation effects.  Note, this is one instance where the old "if I unbury in Hamelin's aura, do I get a token" would result in a yes.  Because when you enter the Start of Activation, you're in his aura.

According to FAQ 18, Goad Witchling applies in step C1, and it has similar wording to the unbury(friendly models that activate), so I think things can only resolve in C1 for start of activation.

[LeperColony]

33 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

According to FAQ 18, Goad Witchling applies in step C1, and it has similar wording to the unbury(friendly models that activate), so I think things can only resolve in C1 for start of activation.

Goad Witchling wouldn't be helpful to resolving this, because it has different wording.  But Life Leech does say "when," and it was included in the FAQ example you quoted.  So I suppose "when" effects do happen in C1!

[LeperColony]

Actually, on re-reading, I don't think this is true.  Life leach says when an enemy model "starts its Activation."  Pine Box says when a model "Activates."  Models Activate in Step B.

So I have to re-reverse myself.  Pine Box does happen first, RAW, imo.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

Actually, on re-reading, I don't think this is true.  Life leach says when an enemy model "starts its Activation."  Pine Box says when a model "Activates."  Models Activate in Step B.

So I have to re-reverse myself.  Pine Box does happen first, RAW, imo.

But Goad Witchling uses "friendly models that activate", which uses the same "activate" wording. So the timing for the two abilities should be the same, no?

[LeperColony]

13 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But Goad Witchling uses "friendly models that activate", which uses the same "activate" wording. So the timing for the two abilities should be the same, no?

Goad Witchling says "that Activate."   That's really bad language because it's not even really timing language, it's conditional.  "People that buy tickets can see the show."  The reason they went with it, I suspect, is to make it clear that the model retains its movement throughout the Activation, even when it moves out of the range.  The extra movement isn't from the aura, it's from Activating within the aura.

"That Activate" could certainly have gone in B, and the fact that they assign it to C1 is not a bad inference that all such abilities should resolve in C1.

The problem is "when" identifies a specific point in time, and according to the current rules (as I understand them), that time is in Step B.  "When the clock strikes 12" happens at 12.  Not 1.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, the FAQ literally even has the 'when' wording to boot:

6 minutes ago, solkan said:

Effects that resolve when a model Activates in Step 1...

Thanks for posting the text Solkan.

[LeperColony]

9 hours ago, solkan said:

 

The FAQ is saying that those are all Step 1 effects.  Pine Box's "When the target activates" has to be the same timing as Goad Witchling.  

Pine Box is also the only example of this wording I could find, which, to my mind, makes it more likely that the word choice wasn't specifically meant to have a clearly distinctive effect.  So I guess I'm back with you guys!