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Bayou vs Neverborn: Advice?


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   Posting on behalf of a friend learning the ropes with his Bayou crews, who needs perhaps a bit of guidance. I play Neverborn, Dreamer, Titania, Nekima, Pandora and Lucius to date. So far he plays Wong and Zipp.

  In 2e zipp was a terror unto himself, murdering Dreamer from out of nowhere, using first mate to deny pretty well any schemes involving markers, and generally performing well. So far in m3e however things haven't been so good for the gremlins. Any and all advice on these match-ups, fighting Neverborn generally, or even just playing Zipp or Wong (especially Wong) would help a lot. 

 I think probably the biggest problem he has so far is getting his crew murdered by the end of turn 2, something that I hope should be avoidable? 

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It's hard to give advice with so little info but there are a few red flags in the OP:

32 minutes ago, Ezuma said:

In 2e zipp was a terror unto himself, murdering Dreamer from out of nowhere,

Zipp is a lot of things but not killy or straightforward; if he is trying to go toe to toe versus crews like Woes or Nephs things won't end well for him.

34 minutes ago, Ezuma said:

 I think probably the biggest problem he has so far is getting his crew murdered by the end of turn 2, something that I hope should be avoidable? 

This may happen in a bad game but it shouldn't happen consistently. He could be overextending hard, picking fights he shouldn't be picking or have to improve the crew selection but there is something off there.


It seems you are his regular oponent and have a bit more of experience so... maybe switch crews with him? Give him one of your crews he is struggling against, explain him how it works and then beat him with his own models. Playing your models he will understand it better and will see the weaknessess of your crew and how you used and hired his models, and you'll learn how those crews works and will be able to advice him better.

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I think that is spot on, definitely it seems to be a mistake to engage early (or maybe at all) with many Neverborn crews. My opponent and I are both learning our masters and have about equal numbers of games in this new edition, but I played a lot more in 2e and probably have a better idea of what to prioritize/avoid.

 When playing Wong my opponent has bunched his crew initially to get fast and a lot of glowy on everything, and from that starting point I think he has been overconfident and not sufficiently afraid of the hurt Neverborn can put out. I was even a little concerned about the amount of fast and damage prevention in the first turn, but it didn't end up making much difference.

Last game was corrupted idols, and we basically both rushed for the center where his bubble essentially melted against Pandora's in a horrible perfect storm. He has performed a lot better with Zipp (at least scoring some points but ultimately losing most games) so it may be partly just that Wong is difficult to handle. 

Keeping some distance definitely seems important especially vs Woes and Nephillim as you noted, so perhaps relying on ranged more would be a good call, although it still seems my crews would have an advantage when it comes to getting to or crossing the centre and scoring.

The suggestion about swapping crews is interesting, we may have to try that. 

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Tell us how it goes if you swap crews!

Don't get me wrong with the above. I'm sure there is a lot of damage and crews in bayou able to go toe to toe with several NVB crews, but it's necesary first knowing how to min/max these and what not to do versus NVB masters. Not sure about Bayou, but NVB (the pure NVB masters, not the double faction ones) are more focused in killing and denying than in scoring efficiently and there are masters that require specific answers (walking like that into a Pandora's bubble is madness for example); so go to meet them in the middle of the board may not be the best course of action most of the time, specially with crews like Zipp. For a more straightforward crew to start probably Ophelia could be a good pick if what he likes is brawling controlling the center.

Gunlines may work well versus some NVB crews as they are usually in the glassy side with not so great ranged threats, Pandora's crew for example has a very dangerous bubble but is also squishy so ranged attack works well, but versus others like Nekima will be more clutch as it has the mobility to close the gap fast enough (but still ranged attacks are good versus Neph to counter Mature combat finesse and all the range 2 mele).

From the top of my head versus your crews:

  • Bayou's upgrades seems quite good versus some of them crews. Inferiority Complex giving Ruthless and Swagger is perfect versus crews like Pandora or the Dreamer; in general NVB is very mele focused so the Disguised in Ghillie is also valuable. Not sure how it'd work but the piggapult with a few stuffed pigglets that deal damage through demises and tactical actions may also be good versus dreamer and Pandora that have a lot of Incorporeal/Terrifying/Manipulative and it can also help to kill daydreams early in the game to reduce the amount of Lucid Dreaming before it can cause a good impact (and it also has to go quite well versus the Dreamer himself as it bypass basically most of his defensive tech and the kid has only 7Wds).
  • Versus Titania the main thing to mind are Rougarous as those hit like a truck and are fast enough to cause problems and not fighting near of underbrushes with models unable to fly or ignore severe terrain (or these will find themselves injured and in the middle of an underbrush); so the best versus her is take care of the wolfs and just go score; the rest of the crew is hard as nails but not that fast (unless she also bring the rider), some marker removal/flight to bypass the underbrushes will be also important versus her. Don't bring ranged attacks unless you can feed a lot of Focused or they ignore concealment. Bultungins are also another scoring/denial piece but these are very glassy, that's another model worth to kill asap.
  • Nephilims are fast glass cannons, so pick the best defensive tech and be ready to counterattack hard, don't let vulnerable models get too far away on their own or they will be killed; mind Combat finesse and range 2 mele that are the 2 things keeping Nephs alive. The most agressive crews will have Nekima and 2 Matures dashing across the board (and using fly with me in other beaters) in turn 1, but mind also the posibility of a double BBS list that will strike later with a lot of Focused in their models.
  • Lucius... is a bit harder to pin down because he can change his playstile a lot and he is one of the few NVB masters able to field a decent gunline... he will probably bring a top notch minion (Mature Neph, Rougarou or Geryon) to boss around so killing that minion will help a lot, Agent 47 is a top notch assassin so that's another model to worry about; killing Changelings may also be useful to remove his ability to obey the same model several times a turn and False Withness having False claim is another model to worry in scheme heay pools.
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