Lelu and Lilitu. Say (why) you like it!

[Maniacal_cackle]

Interestingly my opponent fielded Lilitu without Lelu, which I think was actually a great call.

For our particular scheme pool, Lilitu lined up with everything he needed.

So also worth considering them solo for some matchups.

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

Also a 7 on a lure is very often no better than a 6, simply because of the common Df/Wp spreads: most models are Wp 4-5 so you're at advantage, with a rare few ar Wp7 in which case you probably don't target them anyhow. 

The sad part is the Lure stat 7 isn't even exclusive of her, a Doppleganger can mimic her own Lure to get that Lure stat 7 in a much better kit.

3 hours ago, Adran said:

That's one sort of Zone control. Its not the only sort that matters in Malifaux. A zone of "you can't do anything" can matter. Lelu with the relatively rare 2" engagement can just prevent models from scoring or being fully effective. A model that can't interact( because its engaged), and has to spend an action to get into a place to attack, and might already be distracted, is not a model that is going to do much in that turn.

She is certainly Fragile, and you need to consider that, especially if she is against a strongly ranged crew, but she isn't that much more fragile than a young Nephlim, and lelu and Lilitu is probably more durable than 2 young nephlim. (They would need to actively work to support each other more than the 2 young would).

I certainly wouldn't hire her all the time, but I would consider hiring the twins in some games, and having her as an option to turn the tots into is also good. (I might hire a lone Lelu as he isn't much slower and is more durable than a young, and be ready to consider the Lelitu as an early replace if the game is going that way.)

I can see her advantages; but the disadvantages heavily outweights the advantages imo:

The 2'' engagements is self-countered by how squishy she is; she cannot hold a position. Even models with bad ranged attacks will hit her every time and Lure must move the enemy his Mv, so it's not reliable to get them into the 2'' range without moving the Lilitu first. Also with her Mv5 she cannot keep up with the rest of the crew. The distracted is cute, but without manipulative/Serene countereance it only takes a Focused to get around it; something that won't hurt anyway considering the BB.

It's true the regeneration over time could make them more durable than Young Nephs; but Youngs are very fast, their damage track is good and will use both advantages to deal damage and position before the other player has a chance to damage them; something that more or less balance being squishy; Lilitu is slow and squishy... that's food. And what's worse, potential easy points for the oponent; a model of 7 SS with low damage potential that can be so easily bullied can be used for the enemy to score Hold their forces, Dig their graves, Take prisioner or Vendetta. At least Lelu is self suficient with the draw, she needs other models quite near to get the draw (2'')

Being said that, I do like the Lelu. That one can go with all the Nephs and double the amount of BB splash and his damage track isn't that bad considering the poison; plus he can also go alone and bully cheap models sent to deal with her with his df6 while still getting the card draw... It's a shame his sister is so bad.

2 hours ago, Starrius said:

What some say as uncompetitive others see as different ways of thinking, if it was all so simple everyone was literally be using the same crew.

The added benefit of a model in keyword vs a doppelganger to me is huge as I like to stay in keywords, and black blood does help alot,

I love gimicks and suboptimal teams that rely in the other player don't expecting what is coming his way, I don't care that much about the meta picks beyond knowing what I'm likely going to face. And even with that mindset, I'm having a hard time justifiying the pick.

 

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Hot damn, I played against a Lilitu tonight. Brutal.

Archie ripped her apart.

This pretty much sum it up.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Of course, that meant he took black blood damage (2), and it triggered "enraged by insolence," allowing Nekima one more attack. He took a total of six damage just for killing her. Coupled with another 10 from Nekima the previous turn, and he was dead.

That isn't she being good, the above is Nekima doing Nekima things; you can bring 2 dogs for less than her cost and trigger "Enraged by insolence" twice while being more annoying and generate more corpses with them.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

She also lured some allied models before dying. And being immune to black blood was very relevant, as non black blood models were taking a beating from allies bleeding.

This is maybe the only perk she offers over a Doppleganger, being able to Lure allies without getting damaged by BB when those are attacked. And it relies in other models carrying her first (ride with me/Fly with me) because she limps (maybe she should leave the high heels at home?). Plus Nephs are fast enough to not need Lures as much as other crews.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For that game, she was definitely scarier than a doppleganger.

As with so many squishy utility models, it turns out if you protect her with her bigger friends, she can be quite scary.

For the doppleganger luring allies is more dangerous, but she can copy a mature/enemy attack and make a difference and she is also harder to kill with all her defensive tech. In this particular case Archie Jump plus Ruthless partially counters her defensive tech; but she has a fair chance stay alive if Archie cannot charge her (Archie would need to start at 7'' of less than her), Lelu is beyond dead if Archie is at 17'' of her and decide to go for her. Doppleganger would have to be more careful with her positioning to avoid getting BB damage tho (but she has a 1 extra Mv to work with)

The second point is the problem, unless you physically hide them behind matures/mekima; there is no way to protect her if the other player decides to kill her. But maybe that's her defense! She is so harmless the other player won't go for her until every other model is gone... smart!

 

I know I'm being negative with her profile, but I don't really see what she offers to be so vulnerable.

Other models around the "I'm hot" theme with a Lure have better perks while having her costs or being cheaper: They usually have some kind of defensive tech around it like Manipulative/Don't bite the hand (Showgirl, Trixiebelle, Beckoner...) or Disguised. Better tactical actions or abilities like Celebrity, Don't mind me, Seduction, Scamper, Scarlet Temptation, Rig the Deck, Distraction or attacks that inflicts slow with no trigger.

Meanwhile she gets the negative parts of being an utility piece (low damage output, low mobility and vulnerable) while not bringing enough control/disruption to the table outside a Lure with a good stat, being a Nephilim and some non-built in Distracted (which isn't that useful for the crew anyway because Nephs don't have other to duels and already encourage focused attacks to avoid getting too much BB). And what's worse, as Lelu partialy relies in their shared healing mechanics; she is also hurting him. Seriously, write "Lure" in the App and browse the models with that ability and then check Lilitu's kit.

Ty again for the answers. I'll try her when I get my Nephs because I want to at least give her an oportunity; but I have very low faith in her performance, I really hoped I was missing some key interaction... the only thing that makes sense to me for her being this underpowered is that she were a very hated model in M2e and for that she were relegated and/or nerfed during beta.

[Starrius]

4 games with nekima (not a huge sample size) but I've yet to have either of the twins die.  I think having nekima and a mature charging in changes the targeting options

[Ogid]

46 minutes ago, Starrius said:

4 games with nekima (not a huge sample size) but I've yet to have either of the twins die.  I think having nekima and a mature charging in changes the targeting options

It's true Nekima and Matures are dangerous piceces that draw a lot of atention, but each model has to stand for its own imo.

But this could help... Which lists do you usualy run? How do you use the twins to keep them safe?

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

 

That isn't she being good, the above is Nekima doing Nekima things; you can bring 2 dogs for less than her cost and trigger "Enraged by insolence" twice while being more annoying and generate more corpses with them.

This is maybe the only perk she offers over a Doppleganger, being able to Lure allies without getting damaged by BB when those are attacked. And it relies in other models carrying her first (ride with me/Fly with me) because she limps (maybe she should leave the high heels at home?). Plus Nephs are fast enough to not need Lures as much as other crews.

For the doppleganger luring allies is more dangerous, but she can copy a mature/enemy attack and make a difference and she is also harder to kill with all her defensive tech. In this particular case Archie Jump plus Ruthless partially counters her defensive tech; but she has a fair chance stay alive if Archie cannot charge her (Archie would need to start at 7'' of less than her), Lelu is beyond dead if Archie is at 17'' of her and decide to go for her. Doppleganger would have to be more careful with her positioning to avoid getting BB damage tho (but she has a 1 extra Mv to work with)

The second point is the problem, unless you physically hide them behind matures/mekima; there is no way to protect her if the other player decides to kill her. But maybe that's her defense! The other player won't go for her until every other model is gone... smart!

 

I know I'm being negative with her profile, but I don't really see what she offers to be so vulnerable.

Dogs can't bring models in to a death ball. Archie doing that move to Doppleganger would likely have resulted in a dead doppleganger and 0 damage to archie. (Based on my reading of the description, Nekima was within 6" of Lelitu and engaging Archie, so it is likely Archie was already within 7" of lelitu). And Archie doesn't add 10" to his threat range because he can charge. He would still need to have 3 attacks of weak for the kill, so the difference for safety is only 5".  

It might be a niche difference, and it might also be due to opponent mistakes (was killing Lelitu the best option at that point?) but that's a 6 damage swing on Archie because of the choice of model, which isn't insignifigant.

Walk 5 isn't fast, but I wouldn't describe it as slow.

To get the best out of Lilitu you need to have a plan for her and support for her. That plan might not be a normal Nephlim plan, but bringing models into a death ball rather than running out after them is made much easier with lure. Some models don't gel with some people. Some models don't really show their worth until you actually see what they do on the table. Good luck when you try her out. As I said before, I think knowing how to use her and when you might want her is most likely to help when your meta has started creating plans to deal with the standard Nephlim attack plan.

[Ogid]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

Dogs can't bring models in to a death ball. Archie doing that move to Doppleganger would likely have resulted in a dead doppleganger and 0 damage to archie. (Based on my reading of the description, Nekima was within 6" of Lelitu and engaging Archie, so it is likely Archie was already within 7" of lelitu).

Fair enough, if Archie is close, both models are toast; but that's Archie being a pain in the ass and bypassing defenses, not Doppleganger being in the same league than Lilitu.

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

And Archie doesn't add 10" to his threat range because he can charge. He would still need to have 3 attacks of weak for the kill, so the difference for safety is only 5".

My reasoning line:

• Lilitu: Archie at 17''. He walks, jumps and charges for 16'' covered plus 1'' of engagement range, then flurry. 2 attacks with stat 6 versus a df4 with 7 wds are likely to get at least 1 Moderate.
• Doppleganger: Archie at 12''. He walks and jump for 11'' covered plus 1'' of engagement range, then attack + flurry. 2 attacks with stat 6 versus a df5, can still be killed but it needs 2 moderates or 1 weak + 1 severe; something not that easy.

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

Walk 5 isn't fast, but I wouldn't describe it as slow.

To get the best out of Lilitu you need to have a plan for her and support for her. That plan might not be a normal Nephlim plan, but bringing models into a death ball rather than running out after them is made much easier with lure. Some models don't gel with some people. Some models don't really show their worth until you actually see what they do on the table. Good luck when you try her out. As I said before, I think knowing how to use her and when you might want her is most likely to help when your meta has started creating plans to deal with the standard Nephlim attack plan.

All is relative, in a crew with mv 6 flight and fly with me models, Mv5 is slower than the rest.

Ty, I'll definitely try her out, it's true some models really needs to be played to see their value.

However there is a key interaction I was missing and @Kharnage pointed in another thread. Lelu+Lilitu+Hayreddin aura make the twins very hard to kill (BB healing making them heals after an attack), so while both are near and in range of the aura, they cannot be killed with actions or triggers without moving one of them first. That could make them more playable.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Ogid said:

but each model has to stand for its own imo.

That's the key difference, I think.

IMO you play models for their synergies, not for their stand alone strengths.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's the key difference, I think.

IMO you play models for their synergies, not for their stand alone strengths.

For me both aspects are important, a model too reliant in synergies may be very good, but it would be a niche one or only played in keyword and it will be more prone to just collapse after a few allied models die. One not that reliant may be a nice solo piece, a model that will perform well even if the game isn't going your way or a interesting OOK pick. I saw her as a terrible solo piece and I didn't saw her much better even considering all the synergies with the crew I knew at that point.

However I was missing this Hayreddin/Twins synergy, which is the kind of enabling interaction I was looking for when I made this thread. I'm not sure how viable they would be but the ability to just not die unless the other player can deal ability damage or displace plus the double healing may be good for defending a point or atrittion games (it requires 23 SS worth of models tho). Now I lean more towards give them an oportunity.

I still think her profile is underwelming for her cost and may use a buff (or two), but I would try her in this undying trick. As @Sharp_GT said, if all I want is a Lure, the Doppleganger will always be my first choice.

[Starrius]

As a point I dont own hayreddin, I'm currently not even aiming to put him in my crew

 

Nekima 

-inhuman reflexes

Blood hunter

Young nephilim (7)

Young nephilim (7)

Lelu (7)

Lilitu (7)

Black blood shaman (6)

Terror tot (4)

Terror tot (4)

6 soul stones. Is kind one of my bases.

 

I'm sure once I get around to getting the henchman it might change but been enjoying this with a few mods here and there

[Ogid]

9 hours ago, Starrius said:

6 soul stones. Is kind one of my bases.

Ty! Interesting list... And how do you use it?

Do you grow the BBS into a Mature in turn 1 with Nekima, or do you wait until turn 2 to not use the leader AP in that? How do you use the tots with that low corpse generation? are they your cheap scheme runners or they go with Nekima to die and trigger Nekima's aura or to eat the corpses she "generates"? Which is the role of the twins?

[Starrius]

I aim to get my youngs ready to turn into matures for top of turn 2