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Yet another Miserable question

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Misery and how does it work! Well today, we have an amazing answer for you! 



We still don't fucking know ourselves.

So with that out of the way. Misery. There are so many different ways to interpret it. But how do we think it actually works till FAQ happen?

A) A model between Pandora, Candy, and a sorrow gains stunned. The model is surrounded by 3 misery abilities and they all proc, making the model's owner choose which misery to use. The other two become unusable for the rest of the activation due to their Once Per clause. 
B) A model between Pandora, Candy, and a sorrow gains stunned. The model is surrounded by 3 misery abilities and they all proc, making the model's owner choose which misery to use. The other two are still usable as they didn't get chosen to fully activate.
C) A model between Pandora, Candy, and a sorrow gains stunned. The model is surrounded by 3 misery abilities but the Pandora player chooses which one to use.
D) A model between Pandora, Candy, and a sorrow gains stunned. The model is surrounded by 3 misery abilities but something else happens that I can't think of and you smart gentleman and gentlewoman know more than I.

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Lol, woes are greatly designed! they bring despair also to the players thanks to their aura XDD

Right answer is the C imo... but with the amount of people asking for it, i'm sure it'll be adressed in a FAQ.

Check this thread for further info:

But in a nutshell: The aura has the "may" keyword, letting the woe player choosing if he wants to resolve the effect or not. If the woe player only chooses 1 aura to trigger (as he should), then the other model will only be affected by that aura; the other 2 in your example won't try to damage or move it. So neither they are used (once per activation), nor the other player may choose being affected by them (because these auras aren't trying to change anything on him)

 

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Don't forget that in every other part of the stat cards "may" is used to give the player the choice to do something or not doing it; so the word "may" in this aura is there to give that same choice, triggering the aura or not. In english "may either" could have a meaning, but in stat cards and inside the rules logic this is "may" (either X or Y) not (may either X or Y)

Also if you must trigger all auras, every single aura will get used for the "once per activation", having an effect or not; they will get used and as Pandora is designed as a bubble crew, that design is highly unlikely.

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5 hours ago, katadder said:

Well they make the choice 1st on which aura gets used as active player. Then you get to make your decision on what happens out of your many options.

Active player always chooses first. And he is in 3 auras that are always on. Then you choose what you do.

Do you seriously believe that that's how it's supposed to work?

It's a "once per" aura with a "may" choice in it.  That means:

  • When the condition for the aura is satisfied, the player controlling the model that has the aura gets to make a choice, "Do I want this aura to go off?"  
  • The "once per" limitation means that they're only allowed to say "Yes, I want this aura to go off" once per whatever the period is.
  • If the player says "No, I don't want the aura to go off", then nothing happens for that aura, and nothing happening doesn't count against the "once per" limitation.

 

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6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Thanks @katadder for citing relevant rules. Those sections are often missing from the discussions.

I think the most reasonable answer is that there's not a clear-cut answer within the rules. As such, it's a bit up to individual playgroups until we either get an official ruling or one method is demonstrated to break the game.

There's clearly at least two reasonable interpretations, and the debate has reached the point where people are arguing whether regular English conventions apply or Malifaux has a special English convention. Both are reasonable positions to take, but I don't see how one could expect any sort of resolution.

The issue is further complicated by the word "affect" having multiple different meanings in the auras section. Even if you allow for a no effect/movement/damage set of options for Misery, it doesn't preclude the first interpretation of affect (the continuous aura affecting models, and choosing applies when a model could experience several changes in game state) arriving at a similar outcome.

On the other hand, the second interpretation of affect (that it only applies once a model has experienced a change in game state) is also valid. Everyone is emphasising one interpretation of the word 'affect', ignoring the fact that there's two separate definitions for the word provided in the same paragraph.

No. I usually also try to go for the middle point if there are reasonable doubts about how something works, but in this case there isn't.

I'll copy again the other 2 abilities and Missery:

Quote

 

Misery: Once per Activation. After an enemy model within :aura6 gains Stunned or a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

Execute: The target may either discard a card or a Soulstone. If it does neither, it is Killed, ignoring Demise Abilities.

Needle and ThreadWhen targeting a model with Staggered, this Action ignores any  to its duel and damage flips. Target suffers 1/2/4 damage and must either discard a card or until the End Phase, it cannot declare Actions printed on its Stat Card.

 

may either in execute is used to give the player a choice that he may turn down. But if it does, it has consequences; check also it doesn't say "if the player isn't able to do neither", but "if it does neither"... if you have SS or cards you can choose not  to expend them to save the model if these resources are more valuable for you than the model being executed.

must either in Needle and Thread is used to give the player a choice that he cannot turn down. One of these 2 must be choosen.

So, asumming the wording is consistent across the different cards, in missery may either is giving the player the choice of doing one of the 2 things listed or do nothing.

Before we compared the different wordings it could be doubts for how the english is used colloquially; but having those 2 examples within the rules, there is no way to argue Misery force the player to choose one of the options. I'm sorry for being so inflexible, but I see no other alternative reading here.

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27 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Ogid, even accepting that argument, it addresses the minor point of the word may. The bigger issue is the interpretation of when a model is 'affected' by an aura. There's two different definitions in the paragraph given.

True, I forgot to mention that.

The 2 references for the affect aren't 2 different definitons imo, it's explaining how it works. My reading:

Quote

All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object.

This part refers to auras that are always active (Diversion, Cruel Disapointment, Aura of Deception, Natural Musk...), these auras are affecting (changing something in those models) as long as they remain in range. Other auras like Missery or Life leech aren't affecting anything, but they are looking for its trigger.  The problem is that at this point no definition of what "affected" means is given.

Quote

 If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e., if the Aura would change its game state in some way), then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice.

And this is the key, affected means that the aura will try to change something (a game state).

For continuous auras, Natural Musk for example: if 2 Alphs are engaged with one enemy model, that enemy model will ignore one of them (because 2 auras with the same name are trying to put a:-flip to their damage flips, only 1 is applied), so his damage flips will get :-flip not :-flip:-flip

For auras that triggers at one point and resolve one effect is the same: if 2 life leech auras trigger at the same time (let's say 2 sorrows near of a model), both auras will trigger (these auras doesn't say may, so they are both forced to trigger), both will heal each sorrow 1 Wd, and then both will try to deal 1 damage to the enemy, at this point are 2 auras with the same name trying to affect an enemy model, so the other player choose which sorrow deal damage to him, the other damage is ignored.

Misery works like life leech, with the difference that the player "may" choose to perform an effect or not; but as they have the "one per activation", its controler can only trigger them once. So, if there are more than 1 missery in range, a wise player will only trigger one. That triggered aura will affect the enemy model, and as no other Misery have been triggered, no other aura will try to change anything in that enemy model. If the woe player decides to trigger 2 of these auras, then we will be in a similar position than above, both auras with the same name trying to affect an enemy model at the same time. That model will choose one of them and the effects of the other will get ignored, but as both have been triggered, both cannot be used until the next activation for the "once per activation" limitation.

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Exactly right, Ogid. The word "may" allows the Pandora player to determine if one or more of the auras does anything at all. Provided the Pandora player sensibly chooses only one to apply the effects of, the enemy model only has its game state changed by one aura, and so, despite the presence of overlapping auras of the same name, there is no choice to be made.

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Whilst it has may in the ability the whole sentence has "may either" which makes it a binary option.

So misery procs and you may either move a model 2" or have it suffer 1 damage. There is no 3rd option.

This means that option A is correct as auras cannot be turned off so all auras proc but only 1 can effect a model unfortunately 

Active player gets to choose in case of simultaneous abilities too

Best thing is to put on a condition that only pandora can effect before applying any stunned.

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"May either" just means you can't do both. If it has to do one or the other, it should say, "must either."

Changing the meaning of a word in a rule, or ignoring that word is a cardinal sin of rules interpretation. One cannot simply cause "may" to mean "must."

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May either works in english just as well as must either if there as a binary choice like this is here.

May either do this or this happens and thats how misery reads.

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Except that, "...or this happens," is not the wording of the ability we're discussing. And "may" cannot be used to mean "must" except when discussing states or being that are necessarily binary, alive or dead, on or off, in or out. I'm afraid, 2" push or 1 damage is not one of those necessary binaries. (Heck quantum physics allows for the third possibility even in those ostensible binaries. Thanks Schrodinger.) 2" push/1 damage is more along the lines of cake/pie, and similarly, one may abstain from either, neither being made necessary, the cake or pie by free will, and the push or damage by the absence of wording that makes either necessary, that is, the absence of the word "must."

Further, the use of "may" in that sense is colloquial and not at all typical of rules interpretation or writing.

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When it's a may either this or that then its binary.  Its laid out the options, you may choose either this one or that one.

May works perfectly well as written with options provided.

If no alternative option is provided such as may push a model, then the alternate of that of that is to do nothing, however this offers a may either do this or this happens.

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I'm afraid you're simply missing or misinterpreting the meaning of the word "may," which implicitly allows a "may not." If I "may either do something or something else," I implicitly, based on the meaning of the word "may" may do neither.

To get your interpretation, you need either wording like, "This model then either pushes the affected model 2" or causes it to suffer 1 damage," or "this model must either push the affected model 2" or cause it to suffer 1 damage." Neither is the current wording.

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1 minute ago, katadder said:

When it's a may either this or that then its binary.  Its laid out the options, you may choose either this one or that one.

May works perfectly well as written with options provided.

If no alternative option is provided such as may push a model, then the alternate of that of that is to do nothing, however this offers a may either do this or this happens.

You cannot know that with that degree of certain, unless you have written the rules.

Also take in count how may is used in the rest of the stat cards and how woe are designed... your reading is possible for how things are parsed in english, but highly unlikely for how woe is designed and how it worked the last edition.

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Ok well last edition isnt a good example and they wanted to move away from that anyway.

But say even if your may choice of doing nothing is right(which i still dont agree but that's neither here nor there), you have still made a choice for that aura so it's used for the activation.

So I am in pandora and a sorrow misery aura, I gain stunned. As auras are always active as per the rules then I as active player have to choose which of the 2 auras I get hit by and so can choose pandora.

This would make option B the correct choice as auras are always up and active player gets to choose which one. You may get to choose which option from misery (move, damage or nothing) but due to the always on nature of auras the active player chooses which models effects him. 

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1 minute ago, katadder said:

Ok well last edition isnt a good example and they wanted to move away from that anyway.

But say even if your may choice of doing nothing is right(which is still.dont agree but that's neither here nor there), you have still made a choice for that aura so it's used for the activation.

So I am in pandora and a sorrow misery aura, I gain stunned. As auras are always active as per the rules then I as active player have to choose which of the 2 auras I get hit by and so can choose pandora.

This would make option B the correct choice as auras are always up and active player gets to choose which one. You may get to choose which option from misery (move, damage or nothing) but due to the always on nature of auras the active player chooses which models effects him. 

Once per activation...this model may (apply a push or damage). If the "may not" is opted for, then the Woe player has not applied the push or the damage. You can do nothing any number of times. Say, Pandora uses The Box Opens with only one model in range, and that model fails its duel, and gains Stunned. Pandora may choose to apply her once per activation Misery effect (choosing push or damage), or not. If she chooses not to, and then hits her Delay trigger on Self Loathing, giving the model Slow, she can now choose to apply the effects.

If this is not how Pandora is intended to work, so be it, I will accept an FAQ that say so (and quietly, and sadly, put the garbage Woe crew aside until next edition), but the wording doesn't support that the opponent is intended to have total control over the use of Misery. In fact, I submitted numerous battle reports using Pandora in this (and/or very similar) iteration(s), during the beta and never got any push back on using Misery just like this from players or designers when I used it as Ogid and I are describing.

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Auras are always on though they are not triggers. So yes you can choose not to move a model or do damage with pandoras aura but the active player can still choose hers for the stunned.

The once per activation when a model gains stunned or a condition listed in the opportunity is the cause of the choice. So if you choose not to do anything that's your choice but her aura has still been triggered and chosen by the active player for that activation.

Screenshot_20190923-203705_Drive.jpg

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Yes, the Aura is always on. The once per turn is not the aura itself, which, as you say, will remain "on" whether or not it's doing anything to anybody, whether or not its satisfied its "once per activation." The Aura isn't "once per activation," choosing to apply the effect is. Or (in the case that your language-defying interpretation is correct) literally any time anything gains Stunned or other appropriate Condition within the Aura, in which case, all of the choices of 1 damage or 2" push would have to be made, one for each Aura, and then, the affected player would get to pick which one affects them, and which to ignore.

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I'm going to copy the relevant parts of what I wrote in the other thread:

Quote

The rules say one enemy may only be affected by 1 aura with the same name and if more than one try to affect it, then that player get to choose which one. The key here is the Misery auras don't affect that model for just being in range, the model with the aura needs to choose (may) to trigger his aura, then that aura will try to affect that enemy. Non-triggered auras won't try to change any game state of that model, hence that enemy cannot choose to being affected by that aura. Also the Missery auras have the "Once per activation" limitation, every aura that triggers is gone for that activation; making them pretty useless in bubble play if all must trigger at the same time.

 

Quote

 

In the rulebook (pg30) we are only introduced to the auras which are always active (like the ones in the examples); these work as you say.

But we have another breed of auras where the effect is not always active, the aura is only used to measure a range and to make clear that the ability doesn't stack; but these aren't strictly auras (in the traditional meaning of lingering effect around one model), but reactive abilities with a trigger and an effect. For example Life Leech, if a model enters in the range of that aura in his activation, he will get no damage nor trigger the healing because the trigger was gone.

The same happens with this one, Missery is always "active" checking for the trigger, but it will only try to make a change in a game state when it triggers. The other model get to choose which aura is affecting him only when that aura try to change a game state in them (this is stated clearly in the rules). So in this case as the player have control over the trigger ("may"), he can (and should) trigger just the best aura for him in each scenario.

 

 

7 minutes ago, katadder said:

The once per activation when a model gains stunned or a condition listed in the opportunity is the cause of the choice. So if you choose not to do anything that's your choice but her aura has still been triggered and chosen by the active player for that activation.

Take flurry for example, a model may choose activating flurry (a "may" effect) after his first attack or his second attack; he doesn't lose the ability to flurry if he doesn't use it the first time it may use it.

Misery aura it's the same, the player may use it, but unless he decided to trigger it and resolve their effects, the ability isn't used. The aura is there to make sure that if a guy is stunned in range of the full woe crew, he doesn't get vaporized; but it doesn't make an ability that doesn't trigger used just for meeting the condition to trigger it.

 

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You're the one who added another option to the either or.

Well whatever you choose option B is the best you will get as in the case of overlapping misery the active player gets to choose which one effects him as per the rules as they are all named the same. If you decide not to do anything with it then that's your choice, you cant then say another models aura will effect him as unless you are the active player you can't choose (so best to have overlapping auras in your activation)

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10 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I'm going to copy the relevant parts of what I wrote in the other thread:

 

 

Take flurry for example, a model may choose activating flurry (a "may" effect) after his first attack or his second attack; he doesn't lose the ability to flurry if he doesn't use it the first time it may use it.

Misery aura it's the same, the player may use it, but unless he decided to trigger it and resolve their effects, the ability isn't used. The aura is there to make sure that if a guy is stunned in range of the full woe crew, he doesn't get vaporized; but it doesn't make an ability that doesn't trigger used just for meeting the condition to trigger it.

 

Again going into different things like flurry, it's no relevant. auras are always active (even misery) ,you cant choose to trigger your aura, you can just choose the effect of it and if overlapping then the active player chooses who gets to make that choice of effect.

So active player is in pandora, candy and sorrows aura. Activates so gains stunned from candy, choose pandoras aura as he is active player and all 3 auras are named the same. Then you make your choice of what to do.

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4 minutes ago, katadder said:

You're the one who added another option to the either or.

Well whatever you choose option B is the best you will get as in the case of overlapping misery the active player gets to choose which one effects him as per the rules as they are all named the same. If you decide not to do anything with it then that's your choice, you cant then say another models aura will effect him as unless you are the active player you can't choose (so best to have overlapping auras in your activation)

Hypothetically, if an ability said, "Once per activation. When an enemy model in this aura that takes the Walk action, this model model may either have it suffer 1 damage, push it 2" in any direction, or do nothing." Can I only "do nothing" once per activation?

The active player only gets to choose which of overlapping auras affect them when it would change their game state. If there is no effect, their game state didn't change, no choice. The ability clearly says that the Woe's controller may choose to apply an effect, it's right there in the wording, "...may either push the model 2" or have it suffer 1 damage." (The wording is not "must either" nor does it say, "may push the model 2" or else it suffers 1 damage.") Once per activation clearly refers to the effect because it would be nonsensical to refer to the aura. The affect may be applied once per activation by a given aura. If the model's controller chooses not to apply the effect, then the "once per activation" limit has not been reached.

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Well they make the choice 1st on which aura gets used as active player. Then you get to make your decision on what happens out of your many options.

Active player always chooses first. And he is in 3 auras that are always on. Then you choose what you do.

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Just now, katadder said:

Well they make the choice 1st on which aura gets used as active player. Then you getting make your decision on what happens out of your many options.

Afraid not, that choice only comes up when there would be a change of game state for the active model. "Do nothing" would mean no game state change, hence, no choice. Just as if the active model where in several overlapping auras generated by enemy models that say, "Friendly models in range that take the Walk action add 2" to their Mv." 

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37 minutes ago, katadder said:

Again going into different things like flurry, it's no relevant. auras are always active (even misery) ,you cant choose to trigger your aura, you can just choose the effect of it and if overlapping then the active player chooses who gets to make that choice of effect.

So active player is in pandora, candy and sorrows aura. Activates so gains stunned from candy, choose pandoras aura as he is active player and all 3 auras are named the same. Then you make your choice of what to do.

The Misery aura is always active looking for his trigger, but that not force it to trigger it when the condition meets (with the reading that "may" in this aura doesn't mean "must")

The Flurry case is exactly the same, you have an ability that "may" trigger once per activation when certain condition meets (resolving a :ToS-Melee: attack), you don't lose the ability to flurry if you decide not to trigger it in your first attack.

Also the definition of aura you are using in this case isn't consistent, how can something be always active but at the same time be only applied once per turn? This "aura" isn't a lingering effect (a traditional aura). It is an ability with a trigger and one effect and the rules give control to the player about when to use it with that "may"; the aura is there to use the general aura rules to avoid nuking a model with 7 damage is he get stunned in range of the full crew.

I'm going to leave it here because we are in a going in circles. I see why you think "may either" means you are forced to choose one option, but I also think it's the wrong reading all things considered; it makes no sense with how the crew is designed and it's inconsistent with how the wording is used in the rest of the cards... but I don't know, I can't explain it better...

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Well only thing I can find in the rules relating to choices is attached. It also includes the choice of may but no alternate to not choose so make of it as you will.

The model making the choice may choose either option provided they have the capability to choose that option 

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