Timing of at the start of activation

[gelter]

Hi,

 

rulebook page 35, activation phase c1:

 

how works it with two actions in this phase. In this case collette unbury at the start of her activation. Inside 6“ of hamelins aura. Does she geht blighted?

[gelter]

13 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Maybe my answer wasn't clear enough. For me "At the start of the activation" is a point, a "photograph" of the table in that moment, so anything that may trigger in that moment triggers; anything that doesn't triggers here miss its oportunity. However as there isn't simultaneus effects, the order of these effects resolving can affect other effects. There could be other readings (any effect added in this phase that could trigger, would trigger; that's something that Wyrd have to clarify).

The key is I thought we had to resolve it per effect. For example, an effect that reads "when this model activates, deal 1 damage to each model in 2." If the other player have 2 models in that range, then I choose to resolve that aura, and both suffer 1 damage. But the pg34 rules instruct us to proceed per model, not per effect; so in this case the other player have to choose 1 of his models, suffer 1 damage; then choose the other model and suffer 1 damage.

By going with my first thought, resolving by effect; if you resolve "Showstopper" before "Source of the Contagion" then Colette ends in the aura's range when it triggers. But going with the rulebook way of solving it "per model" (pg34) Colette is only affected by the effects placed on her "at the start of the activation". After she is placed, the trigger "at the start of the activation" is gone for her and the placement cannot affect other effects that happnes at the start of the turn; (for example, if she had the damage aura I wrote above, then Hamelin wouldn't be affected before that effect wasn't placed on him at the start of the activation)

However this is a timing issue that could be read in more than one way, and for the other users answers it seems in other editions this worked differently... It'd be good that this would be adressed in a FAQ, because depending on how you understand "At the start of the activation" (a point or the entire C1 phase), the way to solve this will be different.

C1 is a phase. Not a point. 

 

The phase c1 dont end with the placement of colette. It is still phase c1 and then the aura comes in play.

[Ogid]

12 minutes ago, gelter said:

C1 is a phase. Not a point. 

 

The phase c1 dont end with the placement of colette. It is still phase c1 and then the aura comes in play.

The fact these effects are resolved in the phase C1 doesn't imply they are checked more than once, there could be 2 readings:

1. Check effects that affect every model at the start of the phase, resolve them model by model.
2. Check effects that affect every model at the start of the pahse, resolve them model by model. If a new effect is now affecting a model that wasn't affected before, resolve that new effects model by model, and so on.

You think the right is the nº2, i think it's nº1. Without a formal definition (FAQ) of what Wyrd means with the  trigger "at the start of the activation" we could discuss this for 100 pages.

[gelter]

9 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The fact these effects are resolved in the phase C1 doesn't imply they are checked more than once, there could be 2 readings:

1. Check effects that affect every model at the start of the phase, resolve them model by model.
2. Check effects that affect every model at the start of the pahse, resolve them model by model. If a new effect is now affecting a model that wasn't affected before, resolve that new effects model by model, and so on.

You think the right is the nº2, i think it's nº1. Without a formal definition (FAQ) of what Wyrd means with the  trigger "at the start of the activation" we could discuss this for 100 pages.

Yeah that is exact that what i mean. There is no special timing im which way you resolve those effects. 

 

So lets hop for a quick answer from wyrd

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Where does it say that in the rules? I've not seen that yet, so for the moment, both interpretations seem valid to me.

If the game isn't continuously checking for effects with any change in game state then any number of abilities would never be generated as they would never get checked to be generated. Going off the top of my head: Make Way!, Blade Rush, Flight, determining engagement for purposes of walking, Youko's draw on enemy discard, Lynch's brilliance for an Ace, Dreamer's summon upgrade ability, Shadow Emissaries Mv duel on placement, Made To Kill, Alps 1 damage on unburry, Stampede, Hayreddin's black blood healing aura.

 

 

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, LeperColony said:

Under my theory, it isn't because the process is:

1.  Declare model.

2.  Model's activation starts.  Check for any effects that have "start of activation" timing the model will be affect by.

3.  Resolve such effects.

Which is why I keep saying you're creating a C1i and C1ii because you're differentiating checking for start of activation effects and resolving start of activation effects when the rules make no mention of doing it this way.

 

 

7 hours ago, LeperColony said:

I am not saying this is an invalid interpretation of "start."  Start is often used metaphorically, such as "when I was starting out..." etc.  But it's not inevitable, and when I interpret rules, in the absence of other guidance, I tend to give words their natural meaning.  

The issue with this is that you're putting more emphasis on start than there should be. The phrase is some variation of "at the start of the activation", and the start of a models activation is a set timing point.

[Mycellanious]

Does this set a precident for shockwaves or pulses, since rn we dont continuously check those. If I drop a shockwave and two models are in range but model A is blocking LOS to model B, only model A takes damage. If the shockwave kills model A we do NOT recheck and reupdate the shockwave, even if the shockwave kills model A, model A still blocks LOS to model B so model B is unaffected by the shockwave

[LeperColony]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Which is why I keep saying you're creating a C1i and C1ii because you're differentiating checking for start of activation effects and resolving start of activation effects when the rules make no mention of doing it this way.

And as I've pointed out, that's incorrect.  I'm not differentiating it, I'm merely describing the point at which I'm checking at that instant.  I know you're sensitive to the concept of "checking" as a step, but since it (checking) clearly happens, there has to be a moment in time when we can point to and say "this effect qualifies."  

In this example, that moment is when I first activate Colette and she is buried, Showstopper legally applies and Source of the Contagion does not.

Really unsure what's controversial about that.

Yes, after I resolve Showstopper, I check again.  That's how I know Source doesn't apply, because it doesn't meet the condition of "at the start" of the activation, because it's no longer the start.  Under my reading.

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

The issue with this is that you're putting more emphasis on start than there should be. The phrase is some variation of "at the start of the activation", and the start of a models activation is a set timing point.

No, the issue is I'm interpreting an ambiguous interaction in a way that differs from yours.

The rules do not completely cover this situation, so it is a matter of interpretation.  The difference in our positions is that I've consistently described mine as an interpretation, whereas you're throwing yours out as gospel truth.

[AngelRogue]

I'm of the opinion that start of activation is, "I activate Collette" and then you resolve effects associated with her activation. During the resolving her effects, she is placed within the aura and takes no damage. My reasoning for that being that "at the start of her activation " she was not in 6" of Hamelin. She was only in unburied after her activation was declared, which would put it after the timing of "at the start". She would have to have been within the aura when she was chosen to activate, which is not possible.

[mythicFOX]

For what little it's worth I can read the rules either way and see both sides of the argument.

When I look at 'the Vogel loop', and  'Fire Golem infinite burning' issues talked about on the second page of the thread I move to the rule forum rules assumption;  "Where there are several ways to interpret the rules; the one that doesn't break the rest of the game will be right."

Which brings me down on the side of 'you check once and don't go back to check again', IE you un-bury and don't get blighted.  This may be wrong but it seems to cause the least collateral damage to the integrity of the game in the absence of an FAQ or actual rules text to support either solution.

All very much IMHO.

[mythicFOX]

<MODHAT>

I almost locked this thread seven hours and two pages ago.  Since then the topic doesn't seem to have advanced at all, and now appears to consist of people explaining the same two differing views of the rules to each other without the ability to point to any text in the rules which categorically supports either view.

On that basis I'm calling it a day. 

</MODHAT>