Timing of at the start of activation

[gelter]

Hi,

 

rulebook page 35, activation phase c1:

 

how works it with two actions in this phase. In this case collette unbury at the start of her activation. Inside 6“ of hamelins aura. Does she geht blighted?

[santaclaws01]

You're still in the start of activation phase when you unbury. You're still satisfying the criteria of starting your activation within 6.

[LeperColony]

If you have simultaneous effects pending, the active player decides the order of resolution for their models. 

For the circumstance you described, it's my understanding that Colette would not receive a Blight token because she didn't start her activation within 6.  She started it buried.  

[LeperColony]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're still in the start of activation phase when you unbury. You're still satisfying the criteria of starting your activation within 6.

Then how long does the "start of activation" last?  Because you're only within 6after you resolve an effect.  So why doesn't completing that effect move you out of "start of activation" and into "taking actions?"

And do you have a citation for this?

Finally, suppose an ability:  "At the start of this model's activation, place this model anywhere within 6"."  And you place it within 6" of Hamelin.  You get a blight token?  That doesn't seem right, though it may be true.

[gelter]

the thing is exactly the question if colette can skip hamelins aura, even if it is in the exct same step. Both is at the start of the models activation

[santaclaws01]

11 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

Then how long does the "start of activation" last?  Because you're only within 6after you resolve an effect.  So why doesn't completing that effect move you out of "start of activation" and into "taking actions?"

And do you have a citation for this?

Finally, suppose an ability:  "At the start of this model's activation, place this model anywhere within 6"."  And you place it within 6" of Hamelin.  You get a blight token?  That doesn't seem right, though it may be true.

When all effects that resolve at the start of activation phase(and any additional effects that those generate) are resolved. 

[solkan]

7 minutes ago, gelter said:

the thing is exactly the question if colette can skip hamelins aura, even if it is in the exct same step. Both is at the start of the models activation

The answer to your question is “No”.  You don’t escape an aura by unburying into it.   

You do, on the other hand, trigger an aura for the timing you’re resolving if you enter that aura while resolving something else that happens “at the start of Activation.”

 

[LeperColony]

Do any of you have a citation for how many subsequent effects the "start of activation" can encompass?

In the Colette example, when her controller announces her activation and she is buried, at the "start" of her activation, she's clearly not within 6" (since she is nowhere).  Then, at the "start" of her activation, she unburies, resolving an effect.  However, unburying placed her within 6", which prompts a subsequent effect.  This effect happens after (and because) of the resolution of a "start of activation" effect.  Therefore, in order for any subsequent and consequent effect to occur, it must also lie within the timing of the "start." 

But how long is that?

For instance, suppose Colette unburies within someone with the ability: 

"When an enemy model starts its activation within 2", this model may take a action targeting the enemy model."

Model X therefore attacks Colette because it's still "start of activation."  Colette triggers Fade Away and buries. 

Then, because it's still the "start of activation" she can unbury again?  And this can happen an arbitrary number of times under your timing theory?

[santaclaws01]

Just now, LeperColony said:

Do any of you have a citation for how many subsequent effects the "start of activation" can encompass?

In the Colette example, when her controller announces her activation and she is buried, at the "start" of her activation, she's clearly not within 6" (since she is nowhere).  Then, at the "start" of her activation, she unburies, resolving an effect.  However, unburying placed her within 6", which prompts a subsequent effect.  This effect happens after (and because) of the resolution of a "start of activation" effect.  Therefore, in order for any subsequent and consequent effect to occur, it must also lie within the timing of the "start."  But how long is that?

For instance, suppose Colette unburies within someone with the ability: 

"When an enemy model starts its activation within 2", this model may take a action targeting the enemy model."

Model X therefore attacks Colette because it's still "start of activation."  Colette triggers Fade Away and buries. 

Then, because it's still the "start of activation" she can unbury again?  And this can happen an arbitrary number of times under your timing theory?

Yup, until Colette is killed for causing an enemy to be able to attack her as much as it wants. But this isn't a thing that exists so there's no point in bringing it up to try and support your argument. 

 

The citation is page 21, Start Activation, "Resolve any effects that happen at the start of a model's Activation". Do you have a citation for not resolving an effect in the timing slot where those effects are resolved?

[LeperColony]

6 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

The citation is page 21, Start Activation, "Resolve any effects that happen at the start of a model's Activation". Do you have a citation for not resolving an effect in the timing slot where those effects are resolved?

That citation doesn't establish what you're claiming.

Here's the uncontested fact:

When Colette begins her activation, she isn't within 6" (she's nowhere).

Thus, the only way she can trigger the aura is if a subsequent effect puts her within it.  For instance, if she unburies with it.

The question is, how long is the "start of activation" period?  No rule establishes it.  

You're working off a definition that must necessary mean something like "anything that can happen before taking an action," and so it encompasses any number of effects whether or not those effects would have been legal when the model began its activation.

I'm asking what authority do you have for that definition?

Because it's just as possible that "start of activation" refers to the incipient act of activating, and so any effects that are legal at that stage occur, but effects that come subsequent to those are no longer happening "at the start."

Note, I don't know which is true.  I'm just asking what you're pointing at that establishes it's the way you're claiming.

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, LeperColony said:

That citation doesn't establish what you're claiming.

Here's the uncontested fact:

When Colette begins her activation, she isn't within 6" (she's nowhere).

Thus, the only way she can trigger the aura is if a subsequent effect puts her within it.  For instance, if she unburies with it.

The question is, how long is the "start of activation" period?  No rule establishes it.  

You're working off a definition that must necessary mean something like "anything that can happen before taking an action," and so it encompasses any number of effects whether or not those effects would have been legal when the model began its activation.

I'm asking what authority do you have for that definition?

Because it's just as possible that "start of activation" refers to the incipient act of activating, and so any effects that are legal at that stage occur, but effects that come subsequent to those are no longer happening "at the start."

Note, I don't know which is true.  I'm just asking what you're pointing at that establishes it's the way you're claiming.

Are you in the Take Actions phase? No? Then you're still in the start of activation phase. Unless you want to argue that there's an inbetween phase between the Start Activation phase and the Take Actions phase.

[CD1248]

6 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

That citation doesn't establish what you're claiming.

Here's the uncontested fact:

When Colette begins her activation, she isn't within 6" (she's nowhere).

Thus, the only way she can trigger the aura is if a subsequent effect puts her within it.  For instance, if she unburies with it.

The question is, how long is the "start of activation" period?  No rule establishes it.  

You're working off a definition that must necessary mean something like "anything that can happen before taking an action," and so it encompasses any number of effects whether or not those effects would have been legal when the model began its activation.

I'm asking what authority do you have for that definition?

Because it's just as possible that "start of activation" refers to the incipient act of activating, and so any effects that are legal at that stage occur, but effects that come subsequent to those are no longer happening "at the start."

Note, I don't know which is true.  I'm just asking what you're pointing at that establishes it's the way you're claiming.

Detailed timing chart defines it as step C.1, as has been said.

[LeperColony]

8 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Are you in the Take Actions phase? No?

Why not?  Again, this is the question. 

You're asserting that the "start of activation" step encompasses any number of effects, even if those effects would not have been legal at the literal start of the activation.  Which makes it a kind of subphase.

I'm saying it's just as possible that "start" means what start actually means:

"the point in time or space at which something has its origin; the beginning." (from a google search of "start definition")

At the actual start of Colette's activation, she isn't within 6".  There's no disputing that.

So she resolves all effects that are legal at the "start" of her activation, which is unburying.  Any effect subsequent to those that are legal at the actual inception of her activation aren't at the "start," so if they require "start of activation" timing they fail and you can proceed to take actions.

7 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

Detailed timing chart defines it as step C.1, as has been said.

That's the section we're talking about.  It doesn't state what you're asserting.

It may, however, be the correct interpretation.  I'm just asking if that interpretation has any actual authority to it.

[CD1248]

Just now, LeperColony said:

Why not?  Again, this is the question. 

You're asserting that the "start of activation" step encompasses any number of effects, even if those effects would not have been legal at the literal start of the activation.  Which makes it a kind of subphase.

I'm saying it's just as possible that "start" means what start actually means:

"the point in time or space at which something has its origin; the beginning." (from a google search of "start definition")

At the actual start of Colette's activation, she isn't within 6".  There's no disputing that.

That's the section we're talking about.  It doesn't state what you're asserting.

It may, however, be the correct interpretation.  I'm just asking if that interpretation has any actual authority to it.

C.1: "Start Activation: Resolve effects that happen at the start of a model's activation."

I'm not sure what more you want. 

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, LeperColony said:

Why not?  Again, this is the question. 

You're asserting that the "start of activation" step encompasses any number of effects, even if those effects would not have been legal at the literal start of the activation.  Which makes it a kind of subphase.

I'm saying it's just as possible that "start" means what start actually means:

"the point in time or space at which something has its origin; the beginning." (from a google search of "start definition")

At the actual start of Colette's activation, she isn't within 6".  There's no disputing that.

The Start Activation phase encompass resolving all effects that resolve that the start of a models activation. If you are still in the timing step of resolving effects you will resolve any effects that resolve within that timing step. There is no timing step that checks for all effects that would resolve when a model starts their activation, and then a separate timing step to actually resolve those effects which is what you're arguing happens here. You're trying to add and i and ii to C.1.

[LeperColony]

Just now, CD1248 said:

C.1: "Start Activation: Resolve effects that happen at the start of a model's activation."

I'm not sure what more you want. 

Where is Colette at the start of her activation?  Nowhere (she's buried)

When her activation actually begins, is she within 6" of Hamelin?  No.

So clearly, in order for your interpretation to be correct, "start of activation" has to be longer than the actual start of her activation, because you believe it encompasses abilities that qualify only after subsequent effects have resolved.

But what authority is there that "start of activation" is a kind of subphase as you assert, as opposed to the instant in which the model is activated?

Since your assertion defies the actual definition of "start," I'm just asking if there's some authority to base it on.  Maybe an example of play or FAQ or M2E precedent or some such.

 

[LeperColony]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're trying to add and i and ii to C.1.

No, I'm questioning your definition of "start."  As it varies from the actual definition of start, I'm asking if there's some reason to believe that the Malifaux rules are using the word "start" to describe the expansive period you're describing.  

The irony is, you're the one adding subphases.  

I'm saying when you select a model to activate, that's the "start" of its activation.  And any effect that would be legal at that instant occurs.  

[santaclaws01]

6 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

No, I'm questioning your definition of "start."  As it varies from the actual definition of start, I'm asking if there's some reason to believe that the Malifaux rules are using the word "start" to describe the expansive period you're describing.  

The irony is, you're the one adding subphases.  

I'm saying when you select a model to activate, that's the "start" of its activation.  And any effect that would be legal at that instant occurs.  

Because the rules tell us to resolve all effects that happen at the start of a models activation. It does not tell us to check for effects that happen at the start of a models activation and then to resolve those after checking, it just says to resolve them. Start Activation is a timing step of a model's activation. Like any other timing step for anything else in this game you resolve everything that happens in this timing step. If you are still in this timing step while there are unresolved effects that could resolve in this timing step you are not following what the rules are telling you to do.

 

8 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

But what authority is there that "start of activation" is a kind of subphase as you assert, as opposed to the instant in which the model is activated?

How else are you going to interpret a page tilited Activation Phase that then has a Step A, Step C, Step C1, C2, C3, C4, and Step D as anything other than Step C1 as being a subphase of the Activation Phase.

[LeperColony]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

Because the rules tell us to resolve all effects that happen at the start of a models activation. It does not tell us to check for effects that happen at the start of a models activation and then to resolve those after checking, it just says to resolve them.

How do you know what to resolve if you don't check?  The need to check and see which effects to apply is implicit in applying effects.  

I mean, honest question:  How do you know which effects to apply if you don't check to see if they apply?  Why does Colette unbury if you never check to see if she's buried?

Checking to apply is a continuous process.  My point is if an effect applies only subsequent and consequent to others, it is no longer happening "at the start."

4 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Start Activation is a timing step of a model's activation.

Yes, we know that.  But we don't know how long it lasts.

At the actual, literal start of Colette's activation, if she's buried, is she within 6" of Hamelin?  

No.

The question then becomes if the start activation step encompasses effects that were not legal at the beginning of the model's activation. 

You say it does.

You may be right.

But I'm asking what that interpretation is based on.  If it has any kind of authority, like a FAQ or an example of play that uses the same timing.  Heck, even an M2E reference would be useful (though of course not everything is the same between editions, even with the same name).

7 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

If you are still in this timing step while there are unresolved effects that could resolve in this timing step you are not following what the rules are telling you to do.

The only guidance we have for how long this timing step is is that it's the "start."  We already covered that the actual definition of start favors me, so you must be relying on a different definition of start.

Just to be clear, it's possible Malifaux does use "start" in the way you're claiming (specific words often are used in various ways, especially as terms of art).  But you haven't yet provided any evidence that it does, you've just constructed an interpretation of what would happen if it did.

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

How else are you going to interpret a page tilited Activation Phase that then has a Step A, Step C, Step C1, C2, C3, C4, and Step D as anything other than Step C1 as being a subphase of the Activation Phase.

C1 is a subphase.  But that's not the issue.

The question is what the duration of the "start" of a model's activation is.  You're saying the "start" is a period that begins at the actual start of its activation and includes any effect that would be legal at inception, and then it also includes any effect that would be legal subsequently.

I'm denying that the subsequent period necessary follows, and I'm asking what you're basing this extension on.    

[Maniacal_cackle]

This has come up a few times, a key unresolved question in M3E being "when do you measure for effects", I think.

I think there's at least two valid interpretations (either at the start of an activation, you make a list of all the 'start of activation' effects that are valid and work your way through them, or you keep going through 'start of activation' effects until there is nothing left, even if new 'start of activation' effects are generated during this phase).'

As an example, if a crooligan starts near an ice pillar, can he escape the slow effect by teleporting away with his start of activation teleport? Or is the effect applied even after he teleports away, because the measurement occurred before he teleported? Does the measurement condition have to be met at the start of the activation phase, throughout the phase, at any point during the activation phase, or when you attempt to resolve the effect that requires measuring?

Personally I don't think the rules have an unambiguous answer. In those cases, I suggest talking to your gaming group and establishing a collective approach to applying the rules in a consistent way (or basically, use a house-interpretation).

[Paddywhack]

Sadly they removed some stuff in Beta that might have helped with these issues. For a brief while they had separated out the Start of Activation and During Activation (not sure what they called it) abilities. I'm not sure why they went back to one timing point, but there must have been some reason. However I keep seeing these types of questions pop up so maybe having that distinction would have been useful.

Until a FAQ I agree with others here, no matter how weird it might seem, that multiple effects can happen inside the Start Activation step. This can lead to  Colette unburying near something and being affected by the aura. I'm not 100% sure that was intended, but there were ample chances to correct it in Beta and it wasn't. 

I will be very interested to see the first FAQ...

[Fetid Strumpet]

I’m of the opinion, totally unsupported by text I’ll admit, to just applying similar rules to this situation. If multiple abilities are firing in the same phase then the active player can choose the order in which they fire. Seems to be the cleanest interpretation. But if you want actual hard rulings you’ll probably need to wait for an FAQ. That’s my opinion anyway.

[santaclaws01]

14 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

 

The only guidance we have for how long this timing step is is that it's the "start."  We already covered that the actual definition of start favors me, so you must be relying on a different definition of start.

So then you're arguing that there is a limbo timing step where you are neither in the start activation step or the take actions step. Because this is literally the only way your argument makes sense. The only way to not resolve an effect that resolves at a timing point is to not be in that timing point.

[LeperColony]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

So then you're arguing that there is a limbo timing step where you are neither in the start activation step or the take actions step.

I have no clue how you got that.

I'm saying we differ over the definition of "start of activation."

To me, "start" means when the model begins its activation.  Any effects that would be legal at that moment occur and are resolved in the order specified under the rules.

You're saying that "start" doesn't just mean the conditions that exist at the beginning of the model's activation, but all effects that happen subsequent and consequent to resolving any effects that were legal as of the beginning of activation.

Here's a really simple chart showing our differences:

1.  Colette is buried.

2.  Player A declares he is activating Colette.

3.  Colette "starts" her activation.  Any effects that would be legal as of that instant are resolved.  

--- The difference ---

4.  You believe the "start of activation" extends to encompass conditions that exist subsequent and consequent to the resolution of an effect we already know happened "at the start."

I'm asking how you're deriving your belief in #4, and as I think we all can acknowledge now, there's no direct authority, you simply choose to interpret it in that manner.  

Which indeed may be the correct interpretation.  But it's neither clear nor inevitable, and in fact the actual meaning of "start" leads to an entirely different and consistent result.

[santaclaws01]

29 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I have no clue how you got that.

I'm saying we differ over the definition of "start of activation."

To me, "start" means when the model begins its activation.  Any effects that would be legal at that moment occur and are resolved in the order specified under the rules.

So using the rules what is your argument for being in the Start Activation phase and not resolving an effect that you are told to resolve in the Start Activation phase.

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

So using the rules what is your argument for being in the Start Activation phase and not resolving an effect that you are told to resolve in the Start Activation phase.

Hamelin's ability:

Quote

Enemy models that start their Activation within 6 gain a Blight Token.

It doesn't say "during the start activation phase for a model, give it a blight token if it is within 6"". It just says that if they start their activation near him.

So the reasoning would be that you check for all the 'models that start their activation' effects at the start of the start activation phase, figure out which are relevant, and then resolve them in order.

It's not ironclad reasoning/unambiguously correct. But neither is the other interpretation unambiguously correct.