Do optimised Dreamer lists need to run lure/obey?

[Ceodoc]

All those replies were very helpful and have made me think about Dreamer in a wider extent, thank you guys.

[Ceodoc]

Do we have a stat 8 WP attack in faction and if not a 7 with +flips?

I know there is some stat 7, just wondering what is the best WP attack in faction?

[Adran]

I can't think of any Stat 8 attacks this edition for anyone. I can't think of any stat 7naturally

[Nikodemus]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I can't think of any Stat 8 attacks this edition for anyone. I can't think of any stat 7naturally

Monks have their sort-of stat6 +2 from Chi thing, but that's not "true" 8. There's some 7's. Misaki springs to mind, pretty sure I've bumped into a few others.

 

TT Yan Lo with Silent Protector upgrade gets Stat 9 Challenge from turn 3 onwards (well technically it's stat 6 + 3 to all duel totals, but that's splitting hairs I think)

 

Edit: no 7+flips though that I'm aware of. Not without Adversary.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Ceodoc said:

Do we have a stat 8 WP attack in faction and if not a 7 with +flips?

I know there is some stat 7, just wondering what is the best WP attack in faction?

I'm pretty sure there is no stat 8, and I don't recall any 7+...

Talking about raw power probably Zoraida's Obey is the single best WP ability of the faction, specially considering the range might be 24'' for her when paired with swampfiends and the double mask trigger. For generating a lot of Wp duels Pandora is the queen, having both a long range Wp attack (Only stat 6 tho), as well as 2 aoe abilities based on WP (one as her free action) and terrifying 13.

But If what you want is a way to get the summons out easily and you don't mind going OOK: Kade has a Lure with stat 7 and works well with Teddy (Lilitu is other option, but for the Dreamer I'd pick the baby). Candy has self-loathing (Wp range 10), Glimpse (Wp free action with range 8), a short range (4) pulse Wp ability, and in general a quite useful kit without being as expensive as Pandora. If you aren't worried for the range, the doppleganger may copy any non-master ability and make it stat 7; she could copy terrorize or twist reality for example and use it with a 7; she could even mimic her own lure and make it stat 7 in a pinch.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Playing the Dreamer some more, I definitely struggle with having the 'right' willpower duel at times.

Sure, I can always force a willpower duel here or there, but if the sole intent of the action is to force a summon, it can get pretty inefficient requiring up to three actions (one action to summon, an action to move into willpower duel range, and an action to trigger the duel). Sometimes more if you count focus, etc.

I don't have OOK models, but maybe I'll proxy one or two. Doppleganger seems like the best option, but since I want to buy Pandora anyway, I might try out Baby Cade first. Zoraida is also super up there in possibilities, but 16 stones is a lot. At that point I'd probably shoot for an entirely different build. I'm not ready for that yet xD

[Ogid]

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sure, I can always force a willpower duel here or there, but if the sole intent of the action is to force a summon, it can get pretty inefficient requiring up to three actions (one action to summon, an action to move into willpower duel range, and an action to trigger the duel). Sometimes more if you count focus, etc.

That seems like a tricky part to learn about the Dreamer, when to force summons and when wait until the right oportunity arises... in general getting out of position to force a summon doesn't seem like a great move; but there could be so many specific scenarios that's hard to generalize here.

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't have OOK models, but maybe I'll proxy one or two. Doppleganger seems like the best option, but since I want to buy Pandora anyway, I might try out Baby Cade first. Zoraida is also super up there in possibilities, but 16 stones is a lot. At that point I'd probably shoot for an entirely different build. I'm not ready for that yet xD

Both Doppleganger and Kade seems quite good for OOK models. Doppleganger mimic is quite versatile, specially considering dreamer will always include LCB with his  range 2 3/4/6 attack and 8'' ignoring armor and incorporeal, both solid target to mimic; and after getting a hot deck she could also copy gamble your life.

However I won't overlook Candy, her attack is 2'' shorter than lure but it deals damage, glimpse of insanity is a free ability and stuns (and may trigger his own misery aura, something kade struggles more to do). And that's at long range, she can pulse slow and has corrupted inocence to control mele monsters. Manipulative + Dissarming is a nice defensive tech and she can use SS. Plus a healing ability which may give fast (however Dreamer's shielded or targeting a model with armor/regen to offset the damage would be nice; it could set up quite nicely a LCB teleport with 3 actions).

I agree that including a second master would change the playstyle a lot, so it's better left for later; but something to keep in mind. My own list (testing pending):

Pretty sure would works well:

• Zoraida: Obey, scrap (so extra summons) and cards... Very good.
• Pandora+Poltergeist: Wp flips for days (so easy summons and healing), plus hard counter to crews who like to pile states, and a counter for ruthless. Very good.

Not sure, probably legit:

• Nekima: She is very rushy and that's against Dreamer playstyle; however she is very dangerous and mobile and could be a good distraction until Dreamer's crew is ready to fight. Not sure,  I need to give her a try
• Titania: With Bandersnatch + WW she could be useful; concealment and extra endurance. However not sure how viable she would be.

Not sure:

• Lucius: Maybe I can see an use with Issue command + Styched and Doppleganger or some cheesy comps; plus his abilities are nice. However 2 support masters could backfire hard.
• Marcus: Bandersnatch with some of his upgrades is very scary, but as that's the only beast in keyword and at least 1 or 2 more beasts would need to be included OOK (Azde, Grootslang or Rougarou for example; plus sabertooth is not accessible OOK) I'm not sure about this one, low synergy and again 2 support masters isn't probably a good idea.

No:

• Euripides: There are better beaters for Nightmare, he brings 0 synergy with the crew... not interesting at all.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ogid Pandora's crew box seems like a good place to start. Gives us three models to test out.

[Ogid]

16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Ogid Pandora's crew box seems like a good place to start. Gives us three models to test out

Agree, but it'd say 4. Poltergeist for 5 SS (in addition to Pandora) would be a decent hire, specially versus a mele crew with easy access to ruthless.

Nightmare has a lot of models with Terrifying who may take advantage of weeping widow (and Pandora has the highest Terrifying value in the faction), it gives the oportunity of an extra missery trigger for pandora (The box opens with 2 enemies in range or Slow + Stun versus the same enemy model). Distraction is also neat (easy "Your Nightmare" or "Twist Reality"; pretty good with insidious madness Spectral Bite too), and on top of that Glimpse of Insanity and a way to remove markers in area/at range.

 

Fun fact: Sabertooth has a stat 6 Wp action with a range of 18'' in a quick model (making it a quite good long range nightmare deliverer). It'd be only usable hiring The Dreamer into Marcus tho, which doesn't look like the best double master crew in the faction. But it's still worth to note.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 8/31/2019 at 12:06 AM, Ceodoc said:

Do we have a stat 8 WP attack in faction and if not a 7 with +flips?

I know there is some stat 7, just wondering what is the best WP attack in faction?

I think when getting up that high, what you're really looking for is a stat 6-7 with the ability to easily get focus. Or high mobility, so you can spend actions focusing and still move around.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Ogid, could always go full ridiculous and go:

• Dreamer + Chompy
• Pandora
• Zoraida
• Carver
• 8 soulstones for cache & upgrades.

You're virtually guaranteed to have the high cards you need, and Dreamer can summon insidious madness for scheming. Maybe for some select Reckoning pools.

Just goes to show there's all sorts of ridiculous stuff to try out.

[Ogid]

He, that's my favourite part, the ammount of crazy combinations a player could try. They don't have to be better (more powerful themselves) than a single keyword list; but it might take an oponent by surprise (or help you to counter some of their strenghts). I'll try a lot of funky stuff like that when my colection (and my undestanding of each crew) grows. Plus there are a some of very good models OOK. For the Dreamer I have been thinking about some models I could try to include when the game calls for it (outside of masters or Versatile):

• Aeslin: AoE Injured, He has an easy way to displace enemies. Study, immune distracted. Concealment.
• Autum Knight: Very tanky, Parry + Challenge. Concealment.
• Black Blood Shaman: Pulse Focused + Mature after growing.
• Razorspine: Very fast and unimpeded (pair with Bander and WW and use their webs to ambush)
• Grootslang: Immune distracted, movement shenanigans
• Woes (Kade, Candy): I already talked about them.

I kind of like the idea of your triple master list, but it would need a specific combination of schemes to work. The bubble play is quite strong and summons are always great, but the map control isn't good, there are no healing (so the list is very reliant on SS to negate damage), few lucid dream... and there are few ways to take advantage of the Zoraida's doll. However that gave me an idea...

Pandora (leader) + Zoraida + Carver looks scary... Pandora may set up a min damage 4 Carver and Zoraida may obey someone to move closer, make Carver charge and give it fast (and Pandora could negate that model activation so the counterplay would be harder...)