Sonia’s Scorch the Soul against incorporeal models

[dreads]

Sorry if this has been clarified before. If Sonia’s Scorch the Soul is done on an incorporeal model with 4 burning, does the mode take 4 or 3 damage? It says damage from burning so I would assume it would take 4.

 

[Adran]

14 hours ago, trikk said:

I don't think you can have multiple sources for the same damage as it creates weird interactions. If my attack action moves a Hazardous marker over you, is the damage from an attack action?

 

I think Malifaux rules don't have context outside of their parent. So if the damage is from Burning but it's during the attack action it's still just damage from Burning, but not damage from the Attack Action.

I don't see why you can't have "multiple" sources. After all we already do. The damage can be from "an attack and from a friendly model" which will lead to different rules applying to from "an attack from an enemy model". From an attack and counting as Condition damage is not that complicated.

 

if your action is moving the Hazardous marker, its not the action dealing damage.  You won't actually deal the damage from the hazardous terrain until after the action is finished if that helps.

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I don't see why you can't have "multiple" sources. After all we already do. The damage can be from "an attack and from a friendly model" which will lead to different rules applying to from "an attack from an enemy model". From an attack and counting as Condition damage is not that complicated.

The friendl model is "who" dealt damage, not "what". The source of the damage can be an action, condition damage, hazardous or falling down

[Adran]

13 minutes ago, trikk said:

The friendl model is "who" dealt damage, not "what". The source of the damage can be an action, condition damage, hazardous or falling down

It can also be a trigger or an ability if you want a list (Leviticus' Unmade trigger deals damage without it being any of the sources you list for example) 

And therefore the damage  can be dealt by a trigger and an action, so it can come from multiple sources. (Its possibile for an Action o deal damage and it to have a trigger that deals damage separately Such as Aionus' Eventuality and Leeching strength where the damage from Leeching strength is done by the action, but it is also a trigger that is dealing damage.

It doesn't make any difference that it is from more than 1 of the sources you list, and I can't see anything in the rules that says it can only be from one source.

[trikk]

9 minutes ago, Adran said:

It can also be a trigger or an ability if you want a list (Leveticus' Unmade trigger deals damage without it being any of the sources you list for example) 

And therefore the damage  can be dealt by a trigger and an action, so it can come from multiple sources. (Its possibile for an Action o deal damage and it to have a trigger that deals damage separately Such as Aionus' Eventuality and Leeching strength where the damage from Leeching strength is done by the action, but it is also a trigger that is dealing damage.

It doesn't make any difference that it is from more than 1 of the sources you list, and I can't see anything in the rules that says it can only be from one source.

Triggers are counted as part of an attack action. Else Incorp wouldn't work against triggers because they are not attack actions...

 

If an Incorp model hits a nephilim, does he reduce the black blood damage because its during an attack action?

[Adran]

13 minutes ago, trikk said:

Triggers are counted as part of an attack action. Else Incorp wouldn't work against triggers because they are not attack actions...

 

If an Incorp model hits a nephilim, does he reduce the black blood damage because its during an attack action?

Resistance triggers aren't part of the attack action.

And the damage is from the black blood ability. Its not part of the attack action so no. Just because it happens during an attack action it doesn't mean its part of the action.

But that doesn't change that Scorch the souls is dealing damage that as well as being from the attack action, is considered damage from the burning condition.

 

For reference I consider the things written in the action to be part of the action. This obviously includes the triggers for that action.

[trikk]

9 minutes ago, Adran said:

Resistance triggers aren't part of the attack action.

And the damage is from the black blood ability. Its not part of the attack action so no. Just because it happens during an attack action it doesn't mean its part of the action.

But that doesn't change that Scorch the souls is dealing damage that as well as being from the attack action, is considered damage from the burning condition.

 

For reference I consider the things written in the action to be part of the action. This obviously includes the triggers for that action.

So black blood is not during an action because its from an ability, but Burning damage is from a conditon is from an attack action because its from  an attack action. If you would fall during an attack action, is the falling damage from an attack action?

 

Scorch the souls doesn't deal damage. It makes the target suffer burning damage.

 

I think the consensus is: it needs a faq because we're cycling the same arguments now.

[Kharnage]

So, while we're here, Let's say Molly uses her One More Question attack action on an engaged Goryo. She declares the Debt of Gratitude trigger. Would the Goryo reduce the 1/3/4 flip AND the 2 damage from Debt trigger because they're two separate instances of damage, or only once because it's the same attack action?

[Adran]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

So black blood is not during an action because its from an ability, but Burning damage is from a conditon is from an attack action because its from  an attack action. If you would fall during an attack action, is the falling damage from an attack action?

If the attack action said the model suffers falling damage, then yes it would be from an attack action. If the attack action pushed a model, and during that push it fell then that wouldn't be from the attack action.

3 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

So, while we're here, Let's say Molly uses her One More Question attack action on an engaged Goryo. She declares the Debt of Gratitude trigger. Would the Goryo reduce the 1/3/4 flip AND the 2 damage from Debt trigger because they're two separate instances of damage, or only once because it's the same attack action?

The damage is 2 separate occurrences of damage, so they get resolved separately.

[trikk]

16 minutes ago, Adran said:

If the attack action said the model suffers falling damage, then yes it would be from an attack action. If the attack action pushed a model, and during that push it fell then that wouldn't be from the attack action.

Ok, next step. "Target resolves Burning condition". Is the damage from an Attack Action?

[Adran]

19 minutes ago, trikk said:

Ok, next step. "Target resolves Burning condition". Is the damage from an Attack Action?

That I'm not sure, but at the moment I can't find that wording on any actions so it doesn't actually matter. (I think I've checked all the poison and burning suspects).

[Maniacal_cackle]

One thing worth bringing up here is how damage is resolved.

I think that if the damage happens during the damage step of the attack, it is pretty clearly part of the attack (in the same way damage from triggers is part of the attack).

As the burning damage happens during the damage of the attack action (see page 34), I'd interpret this as being from the attack.

To use the obey > falling damage or the hazardous marker example, both sets of damage occur AFTER the attack action is resolved (and thus the model that attacked can't claim the kill IIRC).

So the precise resolution of the damage step makes me lean strongly towards it counting as damage from an attack: the damage occurs during the attack, not after.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 7/18/2019 at 2:18 AM, trikk said:

If an Incorp model hits a nephilim, does he reduce the black blood damage because its during an attack action?

This is a hot debate currently active.

I argue black blood resolves after the damaging attack. Others disagree, and make your question relevant.

See the exploding so hard you live and heal yourself thread.

[trikk]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One thing worth bringing up here is how damage is resolved.

I think that if the damage happens during the damage step of the attack, it is pretty clearly part of the attack (in the same way damage from triggers is part of the attack).

As the burning damage happens during the damage of the attack action (see page 34), I'd interpret this as being from the attack.

To use the obey > falling damage or the hazardous marker example, both sets of damage occur AFTER the attack action is resolved (and thus the model that attacked can't claim the kill IIRC).

So the precise resolution of the damage step makes me lean strongly towards it counting as damage from an attack: the damage occurs during the attack, not after.

Where did you get that from? Triggers are explicitly stated to be part of the attack.

So if I hit Ironsides with an Incorp model, and she hits back with her trigger, do you take reduced damage because it's during an attack action?

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, trikk said:

Where did you get that from? Triggers are explicitly stated to be part of the attack.

So if I hit Ironsides with an Incorp model, and she hits back with her trigger, do you take reduced damage because it's during an attack action?

Haha, that is a large rabbit hole we probably won't resolve here (see the explosion thread).

In my view, the ironsides trigger does not do its damage until the attack is done.