Yan Lo and flesh upgrade

[Erik1978]

Yan Lo starts his activation by equipping flesh upgrade, which has regen. +2.

We were unsure if that allowed him to regenerate this turn? We went with "no", since he activated, then got regen. Not at all sure though.

[solkan]

22 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Yan Lo starts his activation by equipping flesh upgrade, which has regen. +2.

What it comes down to is that the Start Activation step says:

Quote

Start Activation: Resolve any effects that happen at the start of a model’s Activation.

So Regeneration +2 is a "Start Activation" phase effect.

22 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

We were unsure if that allowed him to regenerate this turn? We went with "no", since he activated, then got regen. Not at all sure though.

During the "Start Activation" step the model gained another "Start Activation" effect.  Why wouldn't that effect resolve?

In order for it not to resolve, you've have to be claiming that "Start Activation" ended before you finished the Ascendancy ability.

 

[solkan]

51 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Because we reasoned his Activation couldn't start twice. But as I said we were unsure if it was "one long step of being IN the start of activation".

To the best of my knowledge all of the steps are "one long step in the process" rather than being the sort of edge triggered 'this happened and if you weren't here you missed it' style event.

 

In other words, "At the start of action" essentially means "During the Start Activation step".  

[CD1248]

1 hour ago, IamW said:

Sorry for ressing this Thread, but is there an official statement regarding this interaction? I've got a game coming up tomorrow where this might come up 

Detailed timing chart defines the start of activation as a single timing step, C.1, in which you resolve start of activation effects. So if while resolving one of those effects you satisfy the requirement for another, then it'll still activate because you're still within the relevant timing step.

Wyrd doesn't do rulings via the forums, if they consider it necessary it'll be in the next FAQ.

[gozer]

21 hours ago, CD1248 said:

Detailed timing chart defines the start of activation as a single timing step, C.1, in which you resolve start of activation effects. So if while resolving one of those effects you satisfy the requirement for another, then it'll still activate because you're still within the relevant timing step.

I agree with this. Here's a more specific breakdown:

When Flesh Ascendant is resolved it triggers another effect in the C.1 step, namely "Regenerate: +2". Per the Sequential Effects on pg 34, both of these resolve.

Additionally, even if it's not considered a sequential effect, when multiple effects occur simultaneously the Active player gets to decide the order. For example...imagine Yan Lo already had Regeneration: +1 (from some other effect). When you start his activation, you could choose to resolve attaching an Ascendant Upgrade BEFORE resolving his Regeneration: +1. Which, would be then be a Regeneration: +3 assuming you were attaching a Flesh Ascendant. 

TL:DR Yan Lo can benefit from Regeneration: +2 on the same turn he attaches Flesh Ascendant.

[Erik1978]

Quote

During the "Start Activation" step the model gained another "Start Activation" effect.  Why wouldn't that effect resolve?

Because we reasoned his Activation couldn't start twice. But as I said we were unsure if it was "one long step of being IN the start of activation".

[IamW]

Sorry for ressing this Thread, but is there an official statement regarding this interaction? I've got a game coming up tomorrow where this might come up 

[Ogid]

As it has been debated here:

The timming isn't clear. I lean towards "At the start of the activation" mean a point, you make a list of the effects that trigger then resolve them in the order stated in the pg34; but it could be both (if an effect add other which trigger at that point, it will also trigger).

9 hours ago, CD1248 said:

Wyrd doesn't do rulings via the forums, if they consider it necessary it'll be in the next FAQ.

I'd say it's, but we'll see.

[LeperColony]

Yeah, no consensus emerged after a lengthy discussion.

Talk it over with your group and arrive at a solution that works for you.

If it's a one-time opponent and you know it might come up, try to bring it up pre-game.  If you're in the game and you can't decide, the good old "roll a die" (or flip a card) to decide and keep the game moving, with a potential post-game discussion, is probably the best way to go.

[LeperColony]

6 minutes ago, gozer said:

I agree with this. Here's a more specific breakdown:

When Flesh Ascendant is resolved it triggers another effect in the C.1 step, namely "Regenerate: 2". Per the Sequential Effects on pg 34, both of these resolve.

Additionally, if multiple effects occur simultaneously, the Active player gets to decide the order. For example...imagine Yan Lo already had Regeneration: +1 (from some other effect). When you start his activation, you could choose to resolve attaching an Ascendant Upgrade BEFORE resolving his Regeneration: +1. Which, would be a Regeneration: +3 assuming you were attaching a Flesh Ascendant. 

The actions are not sequential.  At the start of Yan's activation, he doesn't have the upgrade, so any "at the start" doesn't trigger (as it doesn't exist).  

However, he would heal from the "After Attaching this Upgrade" because it doesn't have "at the start" timing requirements.

Ultimately though, this remains a matter of interpretation that just played out over four pages in the thread @Ogid linked without reaching a consensus and resulted in a pretty even split.

You're just going to have to talk it through with your group/opponent to determine how to play it.

[LeperColony]

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to highlight another issue.

In the thread @Ogid linked, I mentioned that one possibility (though something fraught with manifold issues) was that various abilities work differently despite similar wording. 

Perhaps some "at the start" abilities check once and apply only if legal at the moment of activation.

Maybe other "at the start" abilities really mean something like "during the start activation subphase."

And still yet a third category of "at the start" abilities may mean that they layer specifically as a result of another ability, but aren't generally active during the whole phase (for instance, an upgrade that attaches counts as "at the start" by virtue of the attaching ability).