Removing Pinned tokens

[JamesFlames]

Removing Pinned tokens - I've been reading through the rb and am struggling to work out the pinned token removal:

Quote

"When a Fireteam in this unit attempts to move, its movement is decreased by 2" for every Pinned Token on its unit. For every 2" of movement that this reduces the unit removes a Pinned Token."

So if my unit has a movement of 7" and 2 pinned tokens, I can move a fireteam 3" and remove both pinned tokens? Then other fireteams in the unit can move with no reduction? Am I reading that correctly?

I asked the same question on FB, and there was no clear consensus. Some agreed with my understanding while others thought that the reduced movement would affect all the fireteams in the unit before the tokens are removed.

[Clement]

I agree that it should only impact one fireteam.   The "it messes with all the fireteams" logic I think hinges on the idea that the 3 fireteams moving are actually moving during the exact same moment.  While the rules say they all move at the same time, I think "simultaneous" feels like a stretch.  If the intention was that pinned tokens could ruin all the fire teams, it could have been worded MUCH more explicitly with a single word swap.

Interpreting pinned to mess with the entire squad feels more like a more tortured interpretation.

[solkan]

In spite of how bizarre the Formation rules are written, the movement of Fireteams in a unit isn’t simultaneous.  The ability to move through other Fireteams makes it feel simultaneous (you get the same result as if it were, in a lot of cases) but it’s still not.

I think that’s basically what it come down to, especially with things like the rules for the “move target Fireteam” effects causing multiple movements in squads.

[Skitt_Happens]

While I can see there is an ambiguity to the wording, it is also not worded to say "The next/first fireteam..." The wording of "a fireteam..." implies to me that it is all fireteams. My understanding is that all fireteams move together (all suffering the penalty) and then the unit removes Pinned tokens. I believe that was the intention and the way I have played it.

By your reading of the rule, Pinned has a very corner case usefulness outside of removing reinforcement tokens, as it's rare that every fireteam uses it's full movement so would be easy to discard tokens for no detriment.

[solkan]

30 minutes ago, Skitt_Happens said:

While I can see there is an ambiguity to the wording, it is also not worded to say "The next/first fireteam..." The wording of "a fireteam..." implies to me that it is all fireteams. My understanding is that all fireteams move together (all suffering the penalty) and then the unit removes Pinned tokens. I believe that was the intention and the way I have played it.

For my part, I can show you the Fireteams and Moving rules where it says that Fireateams move one at a time “The player that controls the Action or Ability may choose which Fireteam to move first ...”

That doesn’t bother saying anything about “the next fireteam” either, even though it’s telling you to move one of them first.

Or the fact that the description of Orders says “Any number of Fireteams in the unit may take an Action.” for Advance.  Are you going to claim that all of the Actions in that sentence are simultaneous?  Or do you expect that each action is handled sequentially?

[Skitt_Happens]

27 minutes ago, solkan said:

Or the fact that the description of Orders says “Any number of Fireteams in the unit may take an Action.” for Advance.  Are you going to claim that all of the Actions in that sentence are simultaneous?  Or do you expect that each action is handled sequentially?

Yes. In an abstract sense, the fireteams are not patiently waiting for each other. In practical terms that is clearly not possible.

Let me put it in other terms: if the advance was written on the units card as of it was any other action, then all fireteams are declaring that action at the same time. It can't be interrupted with other actions, the unit advances.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Skitt_Happens said:

Yes. In an abstract sense, the fireteams are not patiently waiting for each other. In practical terms that is clearly not possible.

Let me put it in other terms: if the advance was written on the units card as of it was any other action, then all fireteams are declaring that action at the same time. It can't be interrupted with other actions, the unit advances.

 

Look at the Abyssinia Steel Legion Unit with its three fire teams, one of which is SP6 (the troops) and the other is SP7 (the Cutter) and explain how you think “For every 2” of Movement that this reduces, the unit removes a Pinned Token” works.

Concerning order the actions not being simultaneous, that’s the result of the second paragraph above the order descriptions.  For starters: “If a Fireteam is able to take multiple Actions, those Actions must be taken in immediate succession.”

[JamesFlames]

Whilst I can see merit in both interpretations, I'm more convinced by the first sentence: 

When a Fireteam in this unit attempts to move, its movement is decreased

It clearly says "a Fireteam" and "its movement". If it meant all fireteams in the unit, it would say something to make that clear. 

 

[DeleteAccount]

Have to echo wanting clarification on this since I can see both sides.

[DeleteAccount]

Still no clear answer to this? I mean, this is a core mechanics question, one would hope it would be an easy reply

[Adran]

From the words on the paper it appears that it only affects 1 fire team (Unless you have lots of Pinned tokens so 1 can't remove them all). Skitt appears to be the only person here who reads it differently and the fact the rules for moving fire teams talks about moving them each separately, and how only the first one can move to be out of coherency suggests to me that you do treat each movement separately unlike his interpretation. (Plus his reading that A fire team means All fire teams and the other changes you have to make to the phrasing to make it effect all teams just sounds crazy to me)

[JamesFlames]

21 minutes ago, Adran said:

From the words on the paper it appears that it only affects 1 fire team (Unless you have lots of Pinned tokens so 1 can't remove them all). Skitt appears to be the only person here who reads it differently and the fact the rules for moving fire teams talks about moving them each separately, and how only the first one can move to be out of coherency suggests to me that you do treat each movement separately unlike his interpretation. (Plus his reading that A fire team means All fire teams and the other changes you have to make to the phrasing to make it effect all teams just sounds crazy to me)

I completely agree. Having thought about it quite a lot since asking the question, I think the rules clearly specify that the first fireteam you attempt to move has it's movement reduced, and the tokens that cause that reduction are immediately discarded. Slowing one fireteam can still hobble the rest of the unit because of the unit coherence.

There were more people on FB who viewed it differently, and one guy was pretty rude about it, but that's FB!

[DeleteAccount]

Ok thanks, will play as such