Immidiately or not, timing question

[Domin]

Hy everyone. I have a question: when to effects are come in play at the same time - when the model is killed, activates and so on - but one effect says that it's resolved "immidiately" and other doesn't say so - does the first effect should be resolved before the second or not?

[Myyrä]

Usually the word immediately doesn't really mean anything in the rules context.

I believe the word immediately in the Collodi case is just there to clarify that the model can't take any actions before Collodi player gets to control one.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Domin said:

So the point is: word "immidiately" means nothing, and all such collisions are ruled by the acting model's controller, right?

There are really a few separate things:

1.  The word "immediately" usually doesn't mean anything beyond emphasis on there being no allowance to choose to delay the effect.

For instance, in the case of the Collodi effect, the 1AP action is taken as soon as the model is able to perform an action during its activation (that is, during the "Take Actions" step of the model's Activation). 

2.  Many effects that would appear to happen at the same time do not, because the rules (and sometimes increasingly obscure rules interactions) specify an order in which the events occurs.

For instance, in the Activations rules (Rules Manual, page 33), an order is specified to how things happen when a model activates.  A New Thread specifies that "When this model Activates, the opposing player immediately performs a (1) Action with this model.  This counts as spending one of this model's AP for the Activation."

Candy's Sweets Ability doesn't involve taking actions or generating AP, so it falls under the Resolve "Activation" Effects step.

Between the two sentences, the second one pushes the effect in to the Take Actions step, since it's putting that Action under the terms and conditions for spending AP and thus putting it in the Take Actions step.

For a different example, when you're resolving an Action, if a Trigger and an Ability specify the same timing, the Trigger is resolved before the Ability.

For an even better example, take Bishop's Swift ability.  The ability says "When this model Activates, it generates 1 additional AP."  Swift is resolved in the Generate AP step and not the Resolve "Activation" Effects step, because specify that that is when AP are generated and includes examples using similarly worded conditions like Fast.

3.  In the event that two effects don't have any other inherent ordering, the General Timing rules (Rules Manual, page 51) specifies a "tie breaker" that is four times more elaborate than "the acting model's controller chooses the order".  But, again, General Timing only applies if the two effects don't have any other inherent ordering.  The rules for Blasts, Pulses, end of turn Conditions, Activations, etc., each end up specifying orderings for a lot of effects.

As another example of inherent orderings, if during an action both the attacking model and the defending model declare triggers that happen at the same time, the defending model's trigger gets resolved before the attacking model's trigger.

 

 

[Kadeton]

Rather than an abstract case, can you give specific examples of some effects that have the same timing, but where one says "immediately"? It will be easier for people to answer if they understand what you're referencing.

[Domin]

Ok, here's an example.

Collodi gives an enemy model "The New Thread" condition. It says - when this model activates, the opposing player immidiately performs a (1) Action with this model.

Then the model activates within 3 of Candy an become a target of her Sweets Ability, which says - when an enemy model within 3 activates, it gains the Paralyzed Condition.

So both effects come at the same time, but one has the word "immidiately".

[Ludvig]

Collodi's condition is extra funny since it probably can't be immediately because that would be before generating ap and I'm pretty sure it eplicitly states you use one of the model's ap for that activation.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Collodi's condition is extra funny since it probably can't be immediately because that would be before generating ap and I'm pretty sure it eplicitly states you use one of the model's ap for that activation.

The model doesn't actually generate AP before Collodi takes the action. I just assume it means that model will be generating one ap less.

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

The model doesn't actually generate AP before Collodi takes the action. I just assume it means that model will be generating one ap less.

That's a weird interaction. 

[Myyrä]

Just now, Ludvig said:

That's a weird interaction. 

You could say so, but it doesn't actually generate too many problems. The models owner can decide to do all the start of the activation abilities before letting the Collodi player take the action.

[Domin]

16 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

You could say so, but it doesn't actually generate too many problems. The models owner can decide to do all the start of the activation abilities before letting the Collodi player take the action.

So the point is: word "immidiately" means nothing, and all such collisions are ruled by the acting model's controller, right?

[Myyrä]

13 hours ago, Domin said:

So the point is: word "immidiately" means nothing, and all such collisions are ruled by the acting model's controller, right?

I can't say that this can be generalized to 100% of the cases, but usually yes. Also, it isn't the acting model's controller who decides but controller of the model with the ability (as per general timing on pg. 51 of the small book), which in this case is the acting model's controller. Conditions practically count as abilities of the model they are applied to.

[Domin]

One more question in this topic.

Rules for Summon tell us that:

Models that are summoned gain the Slow Condition, and may not take Interact Actions during the Turn they are summoned.

And Zoraida's Voodoo doll has a Fate Woven ability - when this model is summoned, it may immidiately take the Hem action.

 

Both of those effects are triggered when the model is(are) summoned. So can, I summon the Doll, take Hem action and then gain Slow, sharing it with a hemmed model?

[solkan]

12 hours ago, Domin said:

One more question in this topic.

Rules for Summon tell us that:

Models that are summoned gain the Slow Condition, and may not take Interact Actions during the Turn they are summoned.

And Zoraida's Voodoo doll has a Fate Woven ability - when this model is summoned, it may immidiately take the Hem action.

 

Both of those effects are triggered when the model is(are) summoned. So can, I summon the Doll, take Hem action and then gain Slow, sharing it with a hemmed model?

It gains the Slow condition as part of resolving its summoning, and then you resolve Hem.  Just like the fact that the model physically exists on the table before you resolve Hem.

 

[Domin]

 

3 hours ago, solkan said:

It gains the Slow condition as part of resolving its summoning, and then you resolve Hem.  Just like the fact that the model physically exists on the table before you resolve Hem.

 

Is there a FAQ or another rule that says that? Cause I think that the words "models that are summoned gain Slow" means that it gains Slow after resolving the summon as well, not in process or when the model is not physically exists on the table.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Domin said:

 

Is there a FAQ or another rule that says that? Cause I think that the words "models that are summoned gain Slow" means that it gains Slow after resolving the summon as well, not in process or when the model is not physically exists on the table.

Why doed it mean that? I don't see any after in that sentence so it reads to me like they gain slow while being summoned as part of the summoning.

[Domin]

43 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

47 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Why doed it mean that? I don't see any after in that sentence so it reads to me like they gain slow while being summoned as part of the summoning.

As well as there are no any after in Fate Woven ability of Doll.

Both effects come in play, when the model is summoned, not while the model is in process of summoning.

So why do you're so confident that one thing goes before another?

[Ludvig]

32 minutes ago, Domin said:

As well as there are no any after in Fate Woven ability of Doll.

Both effects come in play, when the model is summoned, not while the model is in process of summoning.

So why do you're so confident that one thing goes before another?

I'm not confident on the order between the two and haven't mentioned that. I was commenting on the "is summoned" part. It describes something being ongoing but passive unless I'm way off on my english grammar. It's basically a shorter way of saying "while it is being summoned". 

I think a lot of people just read it as summoned models coming in with those effects already on them but mechanically you may be right. That would give Zoraida another boost, she's starting to look really strong!

I thi k the argument boils down to if the general rules on summoning are an effect on the acting model because if that is the case it happens before the effect of third party models (like the doll).

 

[Math Mathonwy]

If there would be a FAQ about the Voodoo Doll, I'm 99% sure it would say that the Doll first gets Slow, then Hems.

[Domin]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

If there would be a FAQ about the Voodoo Doll, I'm 99% sure it would say that the Doll first gets Slow, then Hems.

Mentioning it in FAQ would be the best way to answer this question)

[Myyrä]

The summoned model is already slow when it comes into existence.

[Domin]

On 17.10.2017 at 5:15 PM, Myyrä said:

The summoned model is already slow when it comes into existence.

The RB says another thing:

Models that are summoned gain the Slow Condition, and may not take Interact Actions during the Turn they are summoned.

[Myyrä]

9 hours ago, Domin said:

The RB says another thing:

Models that are summoned gain the Slow Condition, and may not take Interact Actions during the Turn they are summoned.

Seems to me like the RB says that gaining Slow Condition is as much part of summoning as placing the model on the table.