Summoning Dreamer advice for matchup needed

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Except I said at the beginning of my posts on this thread that I was giving my opinion. Thats what this thread is about, sharing our thoughts on a summoning dreamer list. In my meta it is a hard fact that doppelganger is an auto include. We just dont see a reason to not take her. But if it makes you feel better Mr. internet warrior, yes it is possible to play a game with neverborb without the doppelganger and win. Congrats, you have the bigger keyboard!

Except this is what you said "I play in a highly competitive meta and all our players non-Neverborn included agree that every competitive Neverborn list needs the Doppleganger." Saying you see it as an auto include and saying you need it to be competetive are two very different things. If you don't want to be called out on making overarching statements then don't make those overarching statements.

[-Loki-]

15 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Except I said at the beginning of my posts on this thread that I was giving my opinion. Thats what this thread is about, sharing our thoughts on a summoning dreamer list. In my meta it is a hard fact that doppelganger is an auto include. We just dont see a reason to not take her. But if it makes you feel better Mr. internet warrior, yes it is possible to play a game with neverborb without the doppelganger and win. Congrats, you have the bigger keyboard!

To be fair, you also said in the original post that you weren't trying to make your opinion seem better than others, and then got locked into an argument about how your opinion is 'provably' better than others. So it's hard to take the 'it's just my opinion' argument.

[DeadManTalking]

22 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

I have played a lot of summoning Dreamer in a rather competitive meta, including a lot of the guys who run and compete in the adepticon tournaments as well as hosting local tournaments every if not every other month. I'm just stating this to show my experience not to try and make my opinion seem better than others.

Must have not read all of my posts. Like I said, I was giving my opinion not stating it as a hard fact of every meta or the game itself.

[DeadManTalking]

I wasnt trying to argue my opinion as better than others. I was called out as being entirely wrong when I was giving an opinion. Sorry for double post.

[santaclaws01]

15 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

I wasnt trying to argue my opinion as better than others. I was called out as being entirely wrong when I was giving an opinion. Sorry for double post.

No, you were called out for a specific statement that wasn't a matter of opinion being wrong. Then instead of just saying you misspoke you doubled down on your original statement and then moved the goal posts after being shown that you couldn't argue your original statement as being correct.

But whatever, I'm done with this particular part of the discussion as I've said my piece. Let us know how your game goes @whodares and what you think you would have changed in hindsight.

[whodares]

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Let us know how your game goes @whodares and what you think you would have changed in hindsight.

I'll try to keep a log. Might even try and keep enough details to make a battle report so you can all laugh at my inexplicably bad game plan and choices

On another note, it would be great if everyone stopped attacking eachother. I understand the points people were making. I'm guessing it was just worded a bit poorly which gave it an unintended meaning. I value the feedback everyone has given in this thread and it would be great if we could keep the forum a positive experience

[Adran]

14 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

I guess the real question is how competitive are you looking to be? Obviously playing the game you are attempting to win, but are you practicing for a tournament or is this just a friendly pick-up game? I play in a highly competitive meta and all our players non-Neverborn included agree that every competitive Neverborn list needs the Doppleganger. Initiative is just too important, on top of being a good scheme runner and secondary beater if need be.

I hate this idea. 

Initative is an important flip of the game IF and ONLY IF you both make it that important. If you don't put yourself in a position where it is crucial to win initiative, then it really doesn't matter. 

I will fully admit my view on this is coloured by losing about 90% of initiative flips for 4 years learning the game, but I play now in a way that most turns I really don't care who wins initiative. If my opponent is playing in a way that they do care. I can normally make sure it doesn't matter. Do they need to go first so Nekima gets to attack again before she is killed? Fine, I'll set up the board so that if she activates first I'll be in a position to kill something else. 

My personal recommendation to the original poster is Learn to play without having to rely on Ill omens. If you really enjoy the high risk high reward play that ill omen supports, then its fairly easy to add her in later and it'll just improve your results. But if you start playing with that safety net it is really hard to cope without it, and doppleganger is not that hard to kill if your opponent actually wants it dead. 

She comes with an interesting package of extra abilities, and is often worth looking at for those, but I strongly suggest if the reason you are hiring her is to put Ill omens in your list, you need to learn to play better. Or accept that you need to protect her and possibly not use her other abilities

(PS my local clubs contain 2 UK GT winners. Does mean we're used to the UK meta rather than the US meta, which does seem to be very different. They also may not agree with all my points but one of them is the person who won about 90% of initiative flips against me, so also doesn't really rate the need the cheat initiative. ) But most importantly, enjoy the way you play. Everyone on the internet is wrong. its what happens on the table in front of you that really matters

[Ludvig]

I think it's easy to get hooked on Ill omens which will hurt you if you switch to playing something that doesn't have access to it. That being said the doppleganger is pretty amazing even without that ability so I try to include it in most of my neverborn crews even when I don't try to cheat the initiative flip. You will always have those turns when you don't even have a high enough card to cheat over your opponents flipped seven even after stoning with wings of darkness. When that happens you will be a lot happier if you adopted Adran's careful playstyle.

[DeadManTalking]

I whole heartedly agree with you @Adran you shouldn't be playing to force yourself to need initiative and if you don't get it you lose. Unfortunately you can't predict what your opponent will bring nor can you predict what they will do with their crew once the game starts. Sure you can have an idea, but I've played plenty of games against people running lists that I was familiar with and then they use it in a completely different way. Certain scenarios in tournaments almost require you to win the initiative or face down the alpha of some super killy crew without reprisal. So I can play towards not needing initiative, but at the end of the day theres going to be at least one turn where initiative is too important to leave to fate. Thats why I feel she's an auto-include in neverborn lists. Even with her in your crew you can't always win initiative, but what she offers on the rest of her card justifies taking her just as much as Ill Omens.

[Philosfr]

I really enjoy the doppleganger, but rarely use Ill Omens. Winning initiative is nice, but at the cost of a high card. I can usually find a better resource for that. Instead, Don't Mind Me is one of the primary reasons I bring her. Schemes like Head Hunter she rarely does anything other than pick up heads and frustrate attackers with Manipulative. I tend to utilize Lilitu heavily in my lists, and that's the second place the doppleganger shines by copying the Lure, potentially 3 times a round with a midsize tome in my hand. I think of the Doppleganger as a second Lilitu early game, and interact piece late game. It also is nice to copy Nekima's big swing in a pinch as well.

That said, if I get away from Lilith/Pandora/Lucius, I frequently leave the Doppleganger at home and rarely miss her.

[Luca 2.0]

I use a lot the doppleganger. not cause of her Ill omens, but for everything that she can offers! after all i think that the icing on the cake is the opportunity to cheat initiative in a turn which is really important.