Summoning Dreamer advice for matchup needed

[whodares]

I currently don't have that much "real" experience with Dreamer so I figured I might as well ask all the gods here for some help.

The setup:

 

Flank Deployment

Extraction

Claim Jump

Dig Their Graves

Leave Your Mark

Show Of Force

Tail'em

 

I'll be playing Dreamer vs Guild.

My idea of a crew right now:

5 Soulstones

Dreamer (Dreams of Pain, Otherworldly, Aether Connection)

Daydream x3

Widow Weaver (Godlike on Extraction imo)

Teddy (Web Marker stacking close to a Teddy helps him get his 0 off)

Coppelius (scheme runner with some alp summon option for more scheme stuff)

Doppleganger (second scheme runner with a possibility of becoming a second Teddy, Lelu, Lilitu, ...)

 

My game plan:

I would go for Claim Jump with Leave Your Mark. Tail'em can be easily denied and Show of Force is not something I feel Neverborn can challenge Guild on. Since a summoner also requires a decent amount of soulstones, I feel like I hit a pretty decent spot here. I'm not completely convinced with hiring Coppelius as he's not getting an upgrade and the Doppleganger also feels rather iffy. I'd be bringing in Lelu and Lilitu rather soon so I can lure his models with upgrades to my Teddy so I can stop him from scoring on Show of Force or lure his scheme runners to stop him from getting Leave Your Mark or Claim Jump.

 

The problem:

I feel like 5 stones might be limiting me a bit too much since Summoning Dreamer got cuddled on the Daydreams. I feel like replacing COppelius with something cheaper might be the way to go, but I'm not sure on what to get then.

How would you run these schemes and strats vs Guild and why? Any insight will be greatly appreciated!

[santaclaws01]

Firstly you have no way to even contest Show of Force. I would drop the Doppleganger for upgrades on Teddy and WW, and drop Aether Connection on Dreamer, he shouldn't be getting damaged in the first place.


On another note, I would actually prefer shooting dreamer in this scheme pool. It encourages grouping up which between Dreamer's paralyze trigger on his base card if a model has Wp 4 or less(daydreams and WW can easily get them to this), and Surround By Nightmares in a small area is going to be doing a lot of work.

[whodares]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Firstly you have no way to even contest Show of Force. I would drop the Doppleganger for upgrades on Teddy and WW, and drop Aether Connection on Dreamer, he shouldn't be getting damaged in the first place.


On another note, I would actually prefer shooting dreamer in this scheme pool. It encourages grouping up which between Dreamer's paralyze trigger on his base card if a model has Wp 4 or less(daydreams and WW can easily get them to this), and Surround By Nightmares in a small area is going to be doing a lot of work.

What upgrades would you be getting on Teddy and WIdow Weaver then? I feel that Fears Given Form will be a decent upgrade to go for, but don't feel like taking Handbag. The Teddy summon can be cute, but doesn't feel too realistic. For Teddy maybe it's a toss-up between Malifaux Provides, Retribution's Eye and On Dreaming Wings.

 

I've decided to go Summoning Dreamer due to the fact that I can run the schemes rather easily while still having a decent effect. The paralyze trigger is on his default attack, so I don't need an upgrade for that. This game is all about the VP after all and I feel like Shooting Dreamer doesn't have the scheme pool he needs to really shine here.

Not to mention Extraction can be cheesed with a summoner if you use the summoner last and plop up an extra 2 models which net you control of the objective and let it move up to 3 inches.

[santaclaws01]

5 minutes ago, whodares said:

What upgrades would you be getting on Teddy and WIdow Weaver then? I feel that Fears Given Form will be a decent upgrade to go for, but don't feel like taking Handbag. The Teddy summon can be cute, but doesn't feel too realistic. For Teddy maybe it's a toss-up between Malifaux Provides, Retribution's Eye and On Dreaming Wings.

 

I've decided to go Summoning Dreamer due to the fact that I can run the schemes rather easily while still having a decent effect. The paralyze trigger is on his default attack, so I don't need an upgrade for that. This game is all about the VP after all and I feel like Shooting Dreamer doesn't have the scheme pool he needs to really shine here.

Not to mention Extraction can be cheesed with a summoner if you use the summoner last and plop up an extra 2 models which net you control of the objective and let it move up to 3 inches.

What other schemes would you really need? Show of force and Extraction both send models to the middle, Dig their Graves and Tail'em mean models are going to be close together as well. The only scheme sending people out will be Leave Your Mark, which Coppelius can very easily stop, especially if he has Dreaming Wings.

As for upgrades 1k faces on both, and mimics blessing on WW. If you want to make Coppelius a fast scheme runner/hunter, then put dreaming wings on him.

[whodares]

11 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

What other schemes would you really need? Show of force and Extraction both send models to the middle, Dig their Graves and Tail'em mean models are going to be close together as well. The only scheme sending people out will be Leave Your Mark, which Coppelius can very easily stop, especially if he has Dreaming Wings.

As for upgrades 1k faces on both, and mimics blessing on WW. If you want to make Coppelius a fast scheme runner/hunter, then put dreaming wings on him.

Convince me on 1k faces. So far I haven't found any real benefit from taking it. Sure, you can swap out for any upgrade during the game, but you better make sure not to pick a 2ss upgrade or you'll lose stones. Stones your master or henchman really need in order to get stuff done.

Mimic's blessing also seems rather counter-productive as you'll be wanting to activate Widow Weaver rather early in the turn to get the web marker out or am I seeing that wrong? With all the WP duels we have, getting that marker of -1wp out early in the turn can be devastating.

[Luca 2.0]

Why are you using daydreams in  a summoning dreamer list? For the push? You don't need, you got the dreamer or you can just summon one if you want something that can push.

If you want them for the mask that they give to you, you are wasting 6 stone for receving 3 stone back! i know they also give -1 WP but it's situational and i remember you that you can still summon them! i Don't like so much coppellius for his stone cost. You can score just summoning on the first turn insidious madness .  You can just summon 2 insidious or just one it depends by you. then you can move them on first turn, second turn they may just score, " 6 inches away from dreamer,7 inches first move plus 7 inches on second turn  and a marker =21 inches considering also the base of the model". removing coppellius and the 3 daydreams give to you 14 points for some incisive model like lelu lilitu. so you can just summon your scheme runner making pression on the center of the board and maybe you can remove aether connection using some upgrade and focus to hold the center line!

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, whodares said:

Convince me on 1k faces. So far I haven't found any real benefit from taking it. Sure, you can swap out for any upgrade during the game, but you better make sure not to pick a 2ss upgrade or you'll lose stones. Stones your master or henchman really need in order to get stuff done.

Mimic's blessing also seems rather counter-productive as you'll be wanting to activate Widow Weaver rather early in the turn to get the web marker out or am I seeing that wrong? With all the WP duels we have, getting that marker of -1wp out early in the turn can be devastating.

Why would you not take 1k faces? All of the neverborn general upgrades are situational, and in the case of 2ss upgrades unless you're actually at your masters cache then that would have been a stone you would have spent on the upgrade anyways. This way there's a potential net +1ss from not taking it after you see the crews and realize you don't need it.

Mimics blessing, especially against guild, gives her protections because you wont always want to activate her first, it also puts less pressure on winning initiative because she'll be fairly well protected from the opponent's first activation.

[whodares]

1 hour ago, Luca 2.0 said:

Why are you using daydreams in  a summoning dreamer list? For the push? You don't need, you got the dreamer or you can just summon one if you want something that can push.

If you want them for the mask that they give to you, you are wasting 6 stone for receving 3 stone back! i know they also give -1 WP but it's situational and i remember you that you can still summon them! i Don't like so much coppellius for his stone cost. You can score just summoning on the first turn insidious madness .  You can just summon 2 insidious or just one it depends by you. then you can move them on first turn, second turn they may just score, " 6 inches away from dreamer,7 inches first move plus 7 inches on second turn  and a marker =21 inches considering also the base of the model". removing coppellius and the 3 daydreams give to you 14 points for some incisive model like lelu lilitu. so you can just summon your scheme runner making pression on the center of the board and maybe you can remove aether connection using some upgrade and focus to hold the center line!

I'm already running a rather elite list, struggling to get to even 8 activations. Getting 3 activations for 6 stones is a really good deal for me then.

I'll probably turn them into masks, but the push should not be underestimated. Extra mobility, get out of engagement (for a 5), save movement AP on the other model is really good for only 2 stones.

You can summon them, but then you're using master AP that can be better spent the first turns to get your engine rolling. Would you rather summon a daydream or Lelu/Lilitu/Insidious/...

Placing them next to Dreamer for his defense trigger means you won't lose much even if the opponent gets a lucky red joker on the damage flip.

Coppelius with Dreaming Wings has 8 Flight movement which is incredible. Give him a single push from a daydream and he can move extremely far while keeping some options open.

You talk about taking away Daydreams and Coppelius for Lelu/Lilitu but you just spent so long talking about summoning things that you don't mention you can just summon Lelu and Lilitu as well! Not to mention they are extremely easy to get back to max wounds as well due to healing share, built-in regeneration and Lelu's Vampiric Bite.

 

I'm just not sure where you are going with your line of thought, but perhaps our playstyles are too different. I would NEVER start summoning Dreamer without at least 2 Daydreams due to cheap activations and extra value as I mentioned above.

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why would you not take 1k faces? All of the neverborn general upgrades are situational, and in the case of 2ss upgrades unless you're actually at your masters cache then that would have been a stone you would have spent on the upgrade anyways. This way there's a potential net +1ss from not taking it after you see the crews and realize you don't need it.

Mimics blessing, especially against guild, gives her protections because you wont always want to activate her first, it also puts less pressure on winning initiative because she'll be fairly well protected from the opponent's first activation.

 

I misjudged, I thought more of the general upgrades were 2 stones, but that is not the case. Still not used to being able to swap like that so I'll try it out.

Also thanks for mentioning the potential +1 stone.

 

Still not convinced about Mimic's Blessing, but I'll try it out. Maybe it clicks for me when I see it being used in a game.

[santaclaws01]

22 minutes ago, whodares said:

 

I misjudged, I thought more of the general upgrades were 2 stones, but that is not the case. Still not used to being able to swap like that so I'll try it out.

Also thanks for mentioning the potential +1 stone.

 

Still not convinced about Mimic's Blessing, but I'll try it out. Maybe it clicks for me when I see it being used in a game.

The main reason for mimics blessing is that it's show of force and you want upgrades. Also the card draw if WW dies is a nice consolation.

[Luca 2.0]

4 hours ago, whodares said:

i made an error with the PC

[Luca 2.0]

That's the point you have a summoning list so if you use only 7 models you can just summon easily 2 or 3 at the first turn. i can understand that you don't want to run lelu and lilitu and it's ok! but a scheme runner like coppellius for 10 points ...imho is not the best option! maybe i'm wrong. What i mean is if you are running a summoning list ... you can be elite cause you summon! so for example you can run lelu with his upgrade and you can summon lilitu and a stiched or an insidious or all of them so you still have a lot of activation and pression for the second turn!

[Chris Rivers]

Another good use for Thousand Faces is if you plan on using Fears Given Form.  You can then setup close to the FGF model and 1K Faces to FGF once your models have cleared the Aura.

[DeadManTalking]

I have played a lot of summoning Dreamer in a rather competitive meta, including a lot of the guys who run and compete in the adepticon tournaments as well as hosting local tournaments every if not every other month. I'm just stating this to show my experience not to try and make my opinion seem better than others. When I play summoning Dreamer there are a few things that are just stapled to his card. First his upgrades, Obviously if you want to run him as a summoner you need Dreams of Pain. Otherworldly is also a necessity, especially against the guild(soo much ranged firepower), if you want your summons to survive. Lastly On Wings of Darkness, yes he doesn't really care about the flight portion but the card draw is pretty much essential. Some will argue that the extra card isn't worth it but card draw is one of the most powerful mechanics in the game so I will always take it. When it comes to his cache again there is only one option for me and that is a full cache of 7. In my meta its rare to see anyone running masters without a full or near full cache, I almost never see a competitive list that runs a master at their base cache. This is especially important for Dreamer as I usually stone for cards every turn unless I get lucky and draw a monster hand. Theres too many uses for stones to not take as many as you can; sure you may not end up needing them all but its better to have them and not need them than to run into a situation where you wish you had more stones. 

When hiring a crew there are three models that I always take with a summoning build. Daydreams are first and I always take 3, with the recent updates to his summoning mechanic they are crucial to ensuring the summoning machine keeps working. For 6 stones you get 3 activations which is fantastic in helping you maintain activation control. Next is the Doppleganger, there are tons of reasons why this model is an auto-include and I'm sure if there isn't a thread already there could be one devoted to just this model. In my opinion she should be in every single competitive Neverborn list. Lastly is Mr. Tannen, I know there are people on these forums that would disagree with me on this, but this guy is fantastic in a Dreamer crew. If you get lucky and draw the 13 of Masks or the Red Joker you can bring in a Teddy, myself and other players in my meta have had games where we summon upwards of 3 Care Bears in a game. Sure its possible you wont see those cards, but he also just helps the dreamers summoning in general with that +2 to all mask cards. On top of that he provides extra protection for your master with his aura, and if they line up a big beater to charge something important you can hit them with his ranged CA attack the lowers their walk and charge characteristics. After I've added all of these to my list I fill with things to help with schemes. The knights from Titania's crew are fantastic most notably the Tooth and Thorn, with both of them in your crew Dig Their Graves is an almost guaranteed 3 points. I've also had great success with running the Hooded Rider in the boys crew, and now that he can become a nightmare ala Serena Bowman I think hes going to be seeing a lot more play. 

[D_acolyte]

On 8/27/2017 at 2:16 PM, whodares said:

I currently don't have that much "real" experience with Dreamer so I figured I might as well ask all the gods here for some help.

The setup:

 

Flank Deployment

Extraction

Claim Jump

Dig Their Graves

Leave Your Mark

Show Of Force

Tail'em

 

I'll be playing Dreamer vs Guild.

My idea of a crew right now:

5 Soulstones

Dreamer (Dreams of Pain, Otherworldly, Aether Connection)

Daydream x3

Widow Weaver (Godlike on Extraction imo)

Teddy (Web Marker stacking close to a Teddy helps him get his 0 off)

Coppelius (scheme runner with some alp summon option for more scheme stuff)

Doppleganger (second scheme runner with a possibility of becoming a second Teddy, Lelu, Lilitu, ...)

Drop Aether Connection for Pact. Most people tend not to target the Dreamer in my experience and this way you do not need to worry about the black joker when you summon. Lucid does not go away when you summon a daydream so you can summon a bunch of alps if you want before doing the summon you care about: Lelu or Lilitu. I think you have to many large point sink. I would drop Coppelius and get Iggy, he is an auto for me in show of force as he is 6 points with depression and a useful bluff on the will I wont I scheme debate. I am not a fan of the schemes you are going for but that matters not, what does matter is you do not want to telegraph them. Example with Show of Force if you have 0-2 upgrades on enforcers or henchmen you are probably not going for it so I as your enemy do not need to worry about it. Next I am not a fan of having the dooplegnager, she never did much for me. You might be better with some cheep scheme runners.

Upgrades I like on teddy: Retributions Eye or On Dreaming Wings

Widow Weaver Upgrades: Mimics Blessing, Pact or Hand Bags

[whodares]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I've decided to follow @santaclaws01 and dropped my doppleganger for upgrades on Widow Weaver, Teddy and Coppelius.

 

I'm still in doubt about @ConfuciuSay and dropping Aether Connection for Wings of Darkness. That's something I'll have to think about for a little bit longer. I came from Ten Thunders which have so many melee masters, so I might still have a wrong impulse here.

 

Something I'm still doubting right now is whether or not to drop my Coppelius for something like Doppleganger, as I do understand how powerful winning initiative can be. Seeing as I can just summoner Coppelius first turn, it does bring some form of doubt on whether or not to hire him or just summon him. If I do decide to replace him, I still have 3 stones left for something like an Alp to get that last cheap activation with a really good slow aura for Extraction. I won't be able to take an upgrade on the Doppleganger then though, which does make her a fair bit more vulnerable.

 

Much to think about still, but I'm really happy with all the great insight everyone here has given me so far!

[DeadManTalking]

I guess the real question is how competitive are you looking to be? Obviously playing the game you are attempting to win, but are you practicing for a tournament or is this just a friendly pick-up game? I play in a highly competitive meta and all our players non-Neverborn included agree that every competitive Neverborn list needs the Doppleganger. Initiative is just too important, on top of being a good scheme runner and secondary beater if need be.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, ConfuciuSay said:

I guess the real question is how competitive are you looking to be? Obviously playing the game you are attempting to win, but are you practicing for a tournament or is this just a friendly pick-up game? I play in a highly competitive meta and all our players non-Neverborn included agree that every competitive Neverborn list needs the Doppleganger. Initiative is just too important, on top of being a good scheme runner and secondary beater if need be.

Your meta is wrong then, unless you think the adepticon winner this year wasn't running a competetive neverborn list. If you can't win a game without the Doppleganger then you have a crutch.

[D_acolyte]

2 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

I guess the real question is how competitive are you looking to be? Obviously playing the game you are attempting to win, but are you practicing for a tournament or is this just a friendly pick-up game? I play in a highly competitive meta and all our players non-Neverborn included agree that every competitive Neverborn list needs the Doppleganger. Initiative is just too important, on top of being a good scheme runner and secondary beater if need be.

I feel there are to many factors in a Malifaux game that saying unless you have X in your build then your not competitive is really limiting your play and ability.

[whodares]

I'm mostly playing friendly games, but I do feel like playing some "real" setups that can be tournament-worthy. Not everything I run is 100% perfect, but that is because I choose to try out different combinations. I come from Ten Thunders where you either run Sensei Yu or the Emissary if you want to have a list that is at least competitive. Not bringing either of those 2 means you're playing a list for fun and not to practice for tournaments.

I don't really get that "must-have" feeling with Doppleganger that has been described. I agree she's a wonderful and powerful model, but not a 100% auto-take as @ConfuciuSay is advocating it to be. She can be strong in a lot of crews, but dropping a high card to win initiative in a Summoning Dreamer crew is not that easy of a choice as compared to some other masters. She's a great model for schemes, but is she really that much better at it than say ... a Silurid with his Leap? Depends on what scheme you are talking about, but for the most part the Silurid will be a whole lot better.

For me the whole gimmick that Doppleganger brings is too card-intensive to really use frequently. If you cheat in too low, your opponent has a decent chance of stoning and beating your cheat, leaving you down a card and lost initiative. Cheat high and you just sacrificed a high card in an already card-hungry crew. Good for a clutch save of a model, but too dependant on too many factors to really be predictable.

Even if I don't bring Doppleganger this game, I will try her out in one of my following games. The choices to make in Neverborn are so much harder than in Ten Thunders when it comes to selecting models. No easy staples such as Yu/Emissary/Brother here it seems.

[DeadManTalking]

In the the Dreamers crew before the update to Lucid I would agree with you on the card costs of running the crew. Now Dreamer has swung to a more support style of play. Summoning two models at most and then buffing them up to send at your opponent. Making two stitches, one fast and one with all its ap can do major damage to your opponent and are probably some of your strongest summons. Now imagine summoning a teddy after your opponent has activated, giving it fast and launching it down your opponents throat. With doppelganger you can now secure initiative and flurry with teddy before your opponent can retaliate.

@santaclaws01 saying my meta is wrong is such a laughable statement. I play with multiple people that have won Adepticon, some of them multiple times so obviously they have some clue of what they're talking about. I was simply sharing the opinion of my meta. Yours may be different but that doesn't make mine wrong.

[santaclaws01]

56 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

@santaclaws01 saying my meta is wrong is such a laughable statement. I play with multiple people that have won Adepticon, some of them multiple times so obviously they have some clue of what they're talking about. I was simply sharing the opinion of my meta. Yours may be different but that doesn't make mine wrong.

What's laughable is saying they're correct when they demonstrably aren't. This year's adepticon winner did not run Doppleganger in the majority of his games, including the final round. So to say it's necessary to run a competitive Neverborn list is demonstrably wrong. Unless you want to say that the tournament you're using as a metric for how competetive your meta is isn't actually a competetive meta.

[DeadManTalking]

You're missing the point. It's my meta's opinion that doppelganger is an auto include in competitive neverborn. My meta has won several times using this logic at the tournament you are using as a metric for competitive level. That doesn't mean the guy who won this year is wrong it just means he runs list differently. Him winning doesn't mean my meta's logic is wrong either as that's one tournament win, when the past several years have been either one of the Bilz brothers or someone from my meta.

[-Loki-]

I've got to say, I've never found the Doppleganger to be that impactful. Cheating Initiative is nice, but I generally have my high cards earmarked for things before the initiative flip, and cheating the Initiative flip means one of those actions needs to rely on luck.

It's nice if you're in a situation were, for example, your master is about to get killed and getting Initiative can save it, but I haven't found cheating the Initiative flip to be as useful as some make it out to be.

[santaclaws01]

22 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

You're missing the point. It's my meta's opinion that doppelganger is an auto include in competitive neverborn. My meta has won several times using this logic at the tournament you are using as a metric for competitive level. That doesn't mean the guy who won this year is wrong it just means he runs list differently. Him winning doesn't mean my meta's logic is wrong either as that's one tournament win, when the past several years have been either one of the Bilz brothers or someone from my meta.

No, I'm not. You said a neverborn list can't be competetive without Doppleganger. You've just shifted the goal posts to saying that your meta only considers it an auto include, which is a matter of opinion rather than the matter of fact that your original statement was.

[DeadManTalking]

Except I said at the beginning of my posts on this thread that I was giving my opinion. Thats what this thread is about, sharing our thoughts on a summoning dreamer list. In my meta it is a hard fact that doppelganger is an auto include. We just dont see a reason to not take her. But if it makes you feel better Mr. internet warrior, yes it is possible to play a game with neverborb without the doppelganger and win. Congrats, you have the bigger keyboard!