Joss or The Captain?

[Moondog]

I'm building and painting a Kaeris crew. I've got the Firestarter as my henchman and he's great but I am looking at more henchmen options. 

I want the Captain to be amazing with Kaeris because the model is so cool, but I think he's far too many points with only 9 wounds to really benefit Kaeris. What do people think? When would you take him, why and for what schemes and strats?

Joss. Any thoughts on using him with Kaeris and again for what schemes? 

What about henchman hardcore? Joss or Captain?

I'm trying to decide between the two while I wait for Carlos to come out who I believe is totally made for Kaeris!!

Thanks

[spooky_squirrel]

The Captain and Joss have two completely different roles:

• The Captain brings control elements (pushes) that can target anyone (including masters and enemies). He grants Bulletproof +1 to people around him (but not himself). He's immune to disengaging strikes and can push away on a defensive trigger. His beater stats are a Relic Hammer, which gives him an edge against Tyrants and Constructs, but not in the same way as Joss. You hire The Captain when you need a control element that can switch gears to go tie things up (3" covers a lot of ground) or kill them (Relic Hammers are solid weapons with decent damage spiking).
  • Pushing things makes him an excellent take into strategies and schemes that are dependent on positioning. You can push your own things into position or your opponent out of position.
  • Immunity to disengaging strikes makes it easier to walk away from Accusation! runners to clear the condition (and deny your opponent the point), as well as walking into where The Captain needs to be to score.
  • Wind Walls can help against shooting crews (as can Bulletproof), as well as providing a little more battlefield-shaping control.
  • On the attack his damage spread looks nice, but without positives don't count on the higher end.
• Joss brings a nasty (1) attack that ignores every common defensive tech except Incorporeal and Impossible to Wound (Stone prevention and Arcane Shielding-style reduction still works, but these are more rare). Armor, Hard to Wound, Hard to Kill, and triggers are disabled by his Arc Axe. He also has a (2) attack that can put a lot of hurt on unarmored things (if it lands). His (1) attack is great into constructs because of the ability to bypass armor (and stop triggers, so no Metal on Metal from the Rail Workers, who cares how much armor Izamu gets). His defensive tech is Armor +2, Hard to Kill, and the ability to Reactivate when he hits 1 wound. You hire Joss when you need a beater that looks like can face tank almost everything else in the game.
  • On paper seems really tough. In actuality, an opponent with experience will deal with him relatively quickly. Meta-dependent, opponents see Arcanists and they have certain assumptions about what to bring. Prior to Sandeep, the assumption was typically "bring stuff that ignores armor." If you see this in your local meta, Joss will feel a whole lot less solid.
  • He better serves as a counter-puncher than a first strike, as he's not as quick and does not threat as far as other similar-cost options.
  • His (1) attack is very consistent (3/4/4) and bypasses stuff as mentioned. Since it is flat, the only thing Joss cares about is landing the attack.

With Kaeris, what role are you looking to fill in her crew? If you need to shape the battlefield, The Captain is a solid take. If you need an anvil on your front line, Joss is your man. As M&SU Henchmen, there's a lot of overlap on the upgrades that they can take (barring their personal upgrades). If you hire The Captain and put him on the front line to soak hits, then yeah, his wound profile won't feel like a whole lot.

 

[Blackraw]

I will share some experience with Joss and some thoughts about Captain since I am still trying to find a crew where I want him.

Joss - he is tanky. Armor +2, H2K with reactivate on 1wd. With Kaeris heal/regeneration from warding runes he may be really survivable (and get regenerate each time he reach 1Wd). Attackwise he is can opener. Yes 3 min damage is good. But since he can do only two attacks (min 6 dmg), does not have offensive triggers or , it is not that great for 10SS model, especially given that the max damage is 4. So he does 3/4/4. E.g. fire gamin does 3/3/4 (effecitively - if calculate burning) but for 4ss. Other min 3 dmg models has better moderate/sever. What is good about him that he ignores most of the defensive abilities (armor, h2w, h2k, def triggers), having to deal only with incorporeal, I2W, prevent and arcane shield. Thus he can get some hard guys wrecked. So if you attack models that does not have any of those, that he ignores, he is not that dmg guy. Also he lacks some mobility to deliver his attacks. Not great charge, not 3"  reach. However he can hold some points pretty well. Mostly when I take him I also get warding runes to counter various negative stuff (like lures) and some two-suits triggers which make him even more survivable and better ground-holder. For henchman hardcore I played with 2 Ox mages, warding runes and Johan. With all M&SU the synergy was great (Warding runes from mages to Joss,  flips to Johan from anyone, Joss-pushes from mages,  WP to mages, heal from Johan).

Does Kaeris need him? Almost any master may find him useful at certain occaisons. Kaeris may also do not mind Ox mage/mages for extra burning-DD, thus giving him access to runes. His survivability may be enhanced by her heal. As for trigger ignores, with burning damage helping to deal with it, his can/opener feature may not be that crucial for her. 

Captain - pretty awesome utility with pushes. Relic hammer is so nice thing with his 3" ,  on Constructs and nice damage spread. With Captain you top it up with +2 burning which is also incredible. However, as for his survivability, I guess he need to spend the stones to prevent to live, making him even more costy. He costs 10ss, with Warding runes and Patron's blessing he is 13SS, add some SS prevent (luckily Kaeris does not need SS for suits that much, so can allow herself to spend some on her own and her hencman's survivability. He can be really helpful to get your model into position and/or get opponent out of scoring zone (or away from your marker). He can launch forward and burn up a Rail Golem in a single AP which is nice, but making the whole thing hell costy. I do not think he is top choice for Henchman Hardcore as he dies faster than Joss. 

For Kaeris he can be an extra source of burning opponent/friendly models (With Kaeris that push also grants +2 burning = +2 heal. Which is good.). Not to say that pushes are also great. So yes, he will be useful. But I do not know if he is 10-13SS useful. For 13SS you can get Angelica for two pushes a turn and potential PP-caddie (6SS/7SS with PP) and Johan (7SS) for Relic Hammer (and other utility also) or Firestarter (7SS) for burning.

[Blackraw]

1 hour ago, spooky_squirrel said:

The Captain and Joss have two completely different roles

 

As always - great breakdown! I did not notice your post which appeared whilst I was finishing mine

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Blackraw said:

I will still leave mine here just in case, since you forgot to mention that Joss does not ignore Arcane shield and I2W

Heheh, thank you for the feedback. I had forgotten them, so I edited my initial post to include I2W and make a special note that prevention and arcane shield still work, but are more rare than other defensive tech (very specific models for the shield, specific models for soulstones). Of course, now that I'm over-thinking it, if your opponent plays nothing but Henchmen under a Master, everyone has soulstone use, and if Sandeep only hires Oxfordian Mages and Sanctioned Spellcasters, everyone has Arcane Shield (though it won't come up always because someone has to activate).

[Blackraw]

1 minute ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Heheh, thank you for the feedback. I had forgotten them, so I edited my initial post to include I2W and make a special note that prevention and arcane shield still work, but are more rare than other defensive tech (very specific models for the shield, specific models for soulstones). Of course, now that I'm over-thinking it, if your opponent plays nothing but Henchmen under a Master, everyone has soulstone use, and if Sandeep only hires Oxfordian Mages and Sanctioned Spellcasters, everyone has Arcane Shield (though it won't come up always because someone has to activate).

Sure, all of that is definately rare things comparing to H2W, H2K, Armor. And as for I2W - frankly speaking Joss does not care about it that much, unless he wants to RJ someone, since the damage line is narrow (3 vs. 4) I would say that I2W is unlikely to stop him from attacking a target he wants

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Blackraw said:

Sure, all of that is definately rare things comparing to H2W, H2K, Armor. And as for I2W - frankly speaking Joss does not care about it that much, unless he wants to RJ someone, since the damage line is narrow (3 vs. 4) I would say that I2W is unlikely to stop him from attacking a target he wants

That's one of the things that's a strong point for Joss--he only needs to hit. Negatives/positives only really matter if the subsequent flipping pops a joker. Otherwise, it's a 1 wound difference. That's one of the things that makes using him with Open Current nice: any increase to the chance of just hitting is good, and putting your opponent on negatives can really help.

[mythicFOX]

Sadly I don't think there's a serious competitive question to which the answer is; The Captain.  Which is a shame 'cause I love the model.

Johan hits just as hard.  Angelica moves our own stuff around.  Cojo and Lust can both shove the enemy around.  Any combination of them is more cost effective than The Captain.

As others have said Joss performs a different role, but he does it well.  

[Mxbedlam]

3 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

Sadly I don't think there's a serious competitive question to which the answer is; The Captain.  Which is a shame 'cause I love the model.

Johan hits just as hard.  Angelica moves our own stuff around.  Cojo and Lust can both shove the enemy around.  Any combination of them is more cost effective than The Captain.

As others have said Joss performs a different role, but he does it well.  

This is how I feel about the Captain too. If he was just a bit few in points I would love to have him around, however, I just can't see a point where he outpaces others for the cost. His damage potential doesn't touch Howard whom he is comparable in points and his utility doesn't touch the Mech Rider for those SS. 

The 9SS+ henchmen slot in my Kaeris crew is pretty much solidly taken up by Carlos at this point. He is tanky, can deal some damage and gives out that burning she covets so much. 

[spooky_squirrel]

2 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

Sadly I don't think there's a serious competitive question to which the answer is; The Captain.  Which is a shame 'cause I love the model.

Johan hits just as hard.  Angelica moves our own stuff around.  Cojo and Lust can both shove the enemy around.  Any combination of them is more cost effective than The Captain.

As others have said Joss performs a different role, but he does it well.  

Which is where all of the problems of The Captain lie. For considerably less I can bring in Johan and get condition removal and M&SU healing on top of the hammer. As long as I don't need* to push opposing models or any masters around, Angelica is a cheaper source of pushes. She is also a brilliant Practiced Production caddie (for me at least), which substantially improves the ability to complete marker-base schemes.

Where you might see The Captain shine is in a HH format where he's running the show as a controller--but only if you want a controller. There are less threats to him, and being able to push 3/4 models in the opposing crew becomes a whole lot stronger.

* this need is rooted in getting your opponent to cooperate with your scheming and overall strategy in some way and can become the subject of some discourse. For newer players, the general attitude is to focus on scoring your schemes with as little reliance on your opponent as possible. More experienced players can tailor their scheme selection based off of what their opponent has on the table.

The funny thing is that when you talk to people who play other factions predominantly about this, they tend to respond with "I wish I had a model that versatile" :shrug: I've seen tournament games of Extraction and Interference decided by a late-activating Captain pushing opposing models out of a scoring position while moving himself (or pushing another friendly) into position.

[Moondog]

I so desperately want him to be good because the model is amazingly cool. I have an old Joss model and neither the old nor the new one really fit with the look of my crew. I think with a Kaeris crew Carlos is going to be picked over Joss and the Captain 99 times out of 100, he just seem that great, plus I like the model - just need to wait until June / July now...

[dancater]

The Captain is not useless or unplayable, he simply is not in a competitive context (tournaments) the optimal choice.  He does a lot of things, he does these things adequately but for the utility you lose durability and pay points.  In the end cheaper models do what he does with additional abilities, sure no model does everything but then you don't usually need everything especially in a game where you can tailor your list building to the opponents faction, scheme, strats and your general plan.

Basically the Captain is a model you will always get play, often get value but rarely get above value returns.

Joss is exactly the opposite, he is slow, durable and can hit.  If you want a durable model Joss is it, Armor, good wounds and soul stone use means he almost always absorbs at least his value in punishment to put down.  He hits hard enough to be deadly to low end opposition and dangerous to high end and he has some little trick abilities to give him the odd surprise utility.  His weaknesses include Armor negation, being generally slow and poor ranged threat (but still has ranged).  For his points he is a bargain for what he does and if played as a durable tank piece he'll almost always return his points value in play, often return more.

So Joss is simply a great model designed and able to perform an important role that most Malifaux games require in some form or another.

Both models are playable, both are characterful and fun, but if you want to min/max your list then Joss is significantly better value for points and purpose than the Captain.

 

[joediamond]

Yeah I have to agree it's not really a proper comparison, since they fill very different roles.  From my experiences so far with Carlos, I'd say he'd be the henchman you'd want to compare Joss to.  And that answer, for me, is simply a question of whether you favor your frontline tank having more raw offensive threat (Joss) or durability/utility/mobility (Carlos).

On 4/6/2017 at 7:12 AM, mythicFOX said:

Sadly I don't think there's a serious competitive question to which the answer is; The Captain.  Which is a shame 'cause I love the model.

Maybe this is just a personal/meta bias for me...is The Captain really viewed so poorly by Arcanist players?  I've had overwhelmingly positive results with him, and Joss hasn't seen my side of the table since a few months after M2E dropped.  Granted, I'm not able to frequently participate in the tournament scene due to life, so I don't see the hardcore competitive side as much.  On the other hand, my local area players are no pushovers, if I do say so myself.  

On 4/6/2017 at 3:24 PM, dancater said:

sure no model does everything but then you don't usually need everything especially in a game where you can tailor your list building to the opponents faction, scheme, strats and your general plan.

The Captain is a General-ist with a Major flexibility in how you can use his abilities/actions (sorry, I just wanted to make the puns ).  I get what you're saying, but a game that continues to evolve, with more models to consider (including more cross-faction stuff like with Sandeep), more upgrades, and more uncertainty of what you will face each game, models that can adapt after the hiring phase only get more and more valuable in my eyes.  Models like Joss, which have a set, albeit effective, gameplan, can only depreciate in my eyes as times goes on.

On 4/6/2017 at 7:12 AM, mythicFOX said:

Johan hits just as hard.  Angelica moves our own stuff around.  Cojo and Lust can both shove the enemy around.  Any combination of them is more cost effective than The Captain.

-Johan: I feel like Johan and the Captain are a false comparison, because their Ml damage profile and  trigger are pretty much the only things they have in common (Captain brings burning, cover, mobility, and control; Johan brings healing and condition removal).

-Angelica: While Angelica's is guaranteed, Captain's movement spell is leagues ahead of hers in all other respects, IMHO.  The ability to not only target enemy models, but also enemy/friendly masters is huge.  It is a massive tactical advantage that The Captain brings that Angelica cannot hope replicate unless you get very aggressive with her in melee.  Captain can also pull shenanigans like giving gunsmiths fast and spreading burning, which is a big deal since OP is talking about Kaeris.

-Cojo: It's funny, back when I still used Cojo I remember thinking, "man I wish I had a model with Cojo's enemy positioning tricks...that wasn't Cojo."   Cojo always died really fast for me with that big, slow base, no soulstones, and meh Df stat.  Plus, because The Captain can push enemies from range, he can control the board from a distance without having to risk charging into the enemy.  He is also smaller and more nimble, which makes it easier to position him for that amazing .

Now granted, these are all cheaper models, so the comparison isn't fair in that respect.  I also am making these observations from the standpoint of a 10-11ss Captain, as I usually run him at 10ss unless I desperately need Show of Force or Warding Runes.  So maybe he just doesn't need to impress me as much as those big, fancy 13ss Captains do.

[iamfanboy]

Another advantage of the Captain: in a highly mixed Scheme Pool, it's really hard to predict WHAT he's doing for you. Joss just does two things: be hard to kill, and kill things. The Captain kills things. Or moves things. Or burns things. Or creates terrain. He's as much a controller as he is a beater.

On top of that, in this current "FFM is on Rams" environment, a simple "This model gets Burning" with no risky damage track attached is helpful. The Firestarter does that, but he also has "I Did It!" which negates the whole REASON to stack Burning on a model for FFM.

[Fictor]

Why it's good option pay high ss cost for a model that does a lot of mediocre things when we can pick more models for do that things, separated and better?

[iamfanboy]

On 4/15/2017 at 4:45 AM, Fictor said:

Why it's good option pay high ss cost for a model that does a lot of mediocre things when we can pick more models for do that things, separated and better?

Well, because then you can have backup and won't lose an angle if you lose a model: Angelica AND the Captain together mean that you'll have plenty of pushes available, Cujo and the Captain together means that you'll DEFINITELY control multiple areas of the board, Johan and the Captain do a massive amount of melee together (and reinforce each other!), and so on.

But what you're asking is, "Is it better to pay 12ss for Joss and 7ss for Angelica, or 13ss for the Captain who can do the job of either depending on what you need during the game?" I mean, my heart will always belong to Cass and Carlos, but sometimes you need flexibility, not focus.

Joss has a razor-sharp focus on cutting down tanks, but he is predictable, a known quantity... and his main defense is the one that everyone expects when you declare Arcanists.

[Mxbedlam]

Is there a case to just bring Captain without Patron Promises? Ca expert is big but you are trading 2 SS for 1 extra AP each turn. It could be that no or another upgrade all together would be a better choice?

[spooky_squirrel]

On 4/15/2017 at 4:45 AM, Fictor said:

Why it's good option pay high ss cost for a model that does a lot of mediocre things when we can pick more models for do that things, separated and better?

As you noted over in the Sandeep Experiences thread, Johan is slow. He becomes slower when you need him to remove conditions and heal. It's just something we have to deal with when we field him. His threat does not reach as far as The Captain's. Johan also does not benefit from having 2 upgrade slots and soulstone use. Johan cannot carry both Bleeding Edge Tech and Imbued Energies.

As has been noted in similar discussions, Angelica brings different tools to the table on top of friendly, non-master pushes. If the only thing you're doing with The Captain is pushing your Oxfordian Mages around in Turns 1 and 2, then Angelica is a more cost-effective way of doing this. She also cannot be charged, which is rather nice, and is a suitable candidate for carrying Practiced Production if you need to have scheme markers in parts of the board where your opponent cannot mess with them. I've had games where I would have rather spent her 7 stones (including PP) on something like:

• a Soulstone Miner, because what my opponent dropped was not something I would need to push into at all, and having an infiltration unit that could run down support elements, be in scoring position, or drop scheme markers on its own would have been better; or
• a beater with a solid min damage, because there were things in my face that absolutely needed to die; or
• dropping the PP node as well and putting the total of 10 stones into Carlos with Stunt Double, because he's ridiculously fast, tanky, and when you need something dead can use a built in trigger on his own attack to make it up to min damage 5 for a single hit.

This is where the argument of flexibility comes into play. The Captain is flexible and quick. He can change roles on the field, during deployment, and even during scheme selection.

• Angelica, Raptor, and PP hired for Leave Your Mark can 'change roles' to shoot for Convict Labor instead, if your opponent's crew and playstyle actively interfere with doing Leave Your Mark (for instance, Ulix with pig summoning package, pigapult, and Corner Deployment) at all. Her friendly pushes to get non-masters up the board quicker will help in Turn 1, absolutely, but now you've got the problem of how you are going to score marker schemes starting in Turn 2.

A heavy skew from strongly focused models in a crew selection can win a lot of games and play consistently, especially within a local meta. There's no ability to deal with wildcards that aren't common in your meta, however. For example, a Guild/'Dita player who's never played into Mei Feng--running the same "kill'em all at range" approach that is tried and true in their local meta--at a large regional event is going to find themselves floored at how little work Perdita can get done against a cagey Mei Feng.

If you're in a position where @Mrbedlam's question seems to be answered with "no" or "I don't know", then you won't really see that there's an extra upgrade slot (and The Captain's apparent base cost is 12, not 10). However, if you've played The Captain without it and found solid uses for him sans Casting Expert, then you've got that upgrade slot. Which ties neatly into the comment about BET + another upgrade.

You might, however, find yourself liking how The Captain with Warding Runes and Bleeding Edge Tech plays out if you're running around with minion constructs, a need to shape the battlefield, and be immune/highly resistant to many opposing controller tricks, while having a quick hammer near the front line. I could see doing this in Kaeris, Ironsides, Sandeep, Ramos, and Mei Feng crews that are using constructs/living constructs as their strategic effort. If you're looking at this, then you'll find yourself in a position where a direct comparison of Joss and The Captain makes perfect sense. Other options to consider if you're not needing/wanting Warding Runes include things like Recharge Soulstone. At this point, you're still having to answer the question of what role this Henchman is supposed to fill.

[Starrius]

I'll be an advocate for the captain. I know his cost is high and while I can agree that you might not get the same useage as say a Howard for the same 12SS.

In my Kaeris crew I am using purifying flame over grab and drop. With this as a base the captain has been really useful.

The trigger to give burning with the push has been useful for healing key models and for alloying burning and moving enemy models out of key positions, the other use I've found is with the pyre markers pushing models into them for hazardous terrain has been useful for FFM.

Another henchman I've been using a lot is cassandra. Depending on schemes cassandra has been amazing also alowing for a whole extra set of pushes.

[spooky_squirrel]

4 hours ago, Starrius said:

The trigger to give burning with the push has been useful for healing key models and for alloying burning and moving enemy models out of key positions, the other use I've found is with the pyre markers pushing models into them for hazardous terrain has been useful for FFM.

This is one of those cases where if you aren't finding a lot of uses for pushing enemies, you might not be playing with enough hazardous terrain. I know my local meta only just started incorporating more hazardous terrain into the table set ups, and it definitely shapes the battlefield in ways that severe terrain cannot. Even without pyre markers (I love this idea, and I think it'll be hilarious if I can work in ways to do it with Carlos' pyre marker--then I'd definitely have reason to use that ability), if there's hazardous terrain on the table that is somewhere meaningful to the scenario, that is a reason to seriously consider control play.