Ophelia

[Somnicide]

Howdy pig farming friends, I've been away for awhile (a year?) after being traumatized in building Gremlins but now a slow grow league has brought me back to the fold. I've had two fantastic games, and am wondering why I ever left (of course, I have just been using the models I build before that broke me). 

I'm doing Ophelia and was curious what the State of the Kin looks like these days, any tips on using her, how I should build her out after the initial Starter Crew only phase ends and we bump up to 40 stones, same master but no other restrictions. 

I have a limited budget, but could probably pick up another starter (most likely Trixiebelle, er, I mean Mah, but Ulix beckons alluringly) and a couple of single models (looking at Old Cranky and Sammy Lacroix). My current collection available is: 

The Kin starter box

The Bayou Boss starter box

Zoraida starter box (I know not strictly Gremlin, but just being complete)

A pigapult

Piglets box

Bayou Gremlins box

1 Hog Whisperer

1 War Wabbit

1 War Pig

Wong (single model only)

I think that is it. Anyway, any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Four_N_Six]

First of all, I think I've only lost 1 game with Mah Tucket, so suck my spoons.

If you like using Ophelia, the only recommendations I have are Lenny and/or Old Cranky.  I like Ophelia, but I haven't used her in a while.  The only problem is that when I did, I parked Lenny nearby and that was it, so she always had Thinkin' Luck.  I'm not great at guaranteeing it otherwise.

Old Cranky is much better than her totems.  I feel like I'd only use her totems if I planned on using her attacks herself, so they can just re-load her so she's not wasting her own AP for it, but Old Cranky will give her  Df, and generate soulstones.  With her built in  on attacks with her traditional guns, she should be killing at least one model a round if you pick your targets carefully enough, so that's an extra soulstone every round if Cranky is nearby.  Not a horrible trade-off to use that strategy to gain Thinkin' Luck if Lenny isn't nearby, but you won't generate enough soulstones from that strategy to counter spending them to hit the trigger.

When I do run her, I tend to put in one or two scheme runners, and ignore other tricks and go for killing.  I tend to bring Ml beaters if I can, and just let Ophelia handle the range on her own.  I don't use her upgrades generally for the attacks, but once in a while the situation comes up where a jug rocket becomes useful.  I've considered semi-pig lists, anything you can get to tie models up in Ml that are Ht 1, so she doesn't have to randomize at them into engagement.  That being said, I still do try to bring big beaters, just to hold stuff and do good Ml damage.  I love the Whiskey Golem.  He's got a fast walk for our faction, gets a free walk AP each turn, and he can get up to Df 7 if you need him to hold the fort.  Plus his new upgrade lets him heal on the attack, so he becomes a little more tanky.  I don't remember the wording on Ophelia's upgrade, but she has one that allows a model to take a (1) action at a .  It's probably for a friendly gremlin model, otherwise she can make Whiskey get his +2 Df.

Mancha Roja is someone else I really like bringing when I need good beaters.  The Emissary might be good, but to be honest I've never run him with her.  Although he's good at holding down positions anyways, so I can't imagine you'd regret throwing him into a crew.

[Somnicide]

That's an awesome write up, thanks! Now you have me intrigued about Mah, have you written anything up in her?

[Math Mathonwy]

13 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

Old Cranky is much better than her totems.  I feel like I'd only use her totems if I planned on using her attacks herself, so they can just re-load her so she's not wasting her own AP for it, but Old Cranky will give her  Df, and generate soulstones.  With her built in  on attacks with her traditional guns, she should be killing at least one model a round if you pick your targets carefully enough, so that's an extra soulstone every round if Cranky is nearby.  Not a horrible trade-off to use that strategy to gain Thinkin' Luck if Lenny isn't nearby, but you won't generate enough soulstones from that strategy to counter spending them to hit the trigger.

I disagree on Young LaCroix. I find them amazing. They have an absolutely stupid damage track when next to Lenny. Simply Focus and watch the enemy squirm. They are also ridiculously cheap giving you out-activation which, with Ophelia, often means dead enemy model(s) in the first turn turn already. Or else very suboptimal placement from the enemy as they try to hide. Bayou Gremlins are 50% more expensive than the Youngs and a six SS investment will get you three Activations as opposed to two.

I can count on one hand the times I've shot Upgrade guns - both Oph and the Youngs have much better normal attacks. The guns are good from Plink and for their (0)Actions. On paper it looks like the special guns would have their places to shine but the situation simply doesn't seem to materialize for me during games.

One memorable Young of mine killed both Ototo and Lynch in a single game.

13 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

I don't remember the wording on Ophelia's upgrade, but she has one that allows a model to take a (1) action at a .  It's probably for a friendly gremlin model, otherwise she can make Whiskey get his +2 Df.

It's friendly Kin - otherwise it would be fun for Moon Shinobis...

I also don't like WG with Oph as he is too big for Aim High Boys. As is Mancha.

[PositronMike]

I tend to play a mainly never crew with Ophelia as she is no slouch in combat and if you mainly have height one models she can shoot in to combat to help due to aim high boys. 

 

Typically I take Cranky over the young lacroix as I like being in melee and tend to clump up so that his defence and willpower buffs help multi models. I tend to take Sammy with my threatening gun to order Ophelia around and she works well with Crankys card draw.  Other models who tend to end up in my Ophelia crew are Burt, Raphael, Franc and Lenny. 

If I need some long range shooting and activation control I will sometimes bring the pigapult and stuffed piglets. 

[Four_N_Six]

3 hours ago, Somnicide said:

That's an awesome write up, thanks! Now you have me intrigued about Mah, have you written anything up in her?

I have not, but I can. Best thing I've realized is that she doesn't need the Bushwackers. She's a very good master on her own, like Lilith or Lady Justice. People like nephilim with Lilith, but I always have much more success when I ignore them and let Lilith lead whoever I need. Same thing with Mah

[Somnicide]

I'm going OT in my own thread but please do! Do you just run regular bayous?

[Four_N_Six]

10 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I disagree on Young LaCroix. I find them amazing. They have an absolutely stupid damage track when next to Lenny. Simply Focus and watch the enemy squirm. They are also ridiculously cheap giving you out-activation which, with Ophelia, often means dead enemy model(s) in the first turn turn already. Or else very suboptimal placement from the enemy as they try to hide. Bayou Gremlins are 50% more expensive than the Youngs and a six SS investment will get you three Activations as opposed to two.

I can count on one hand the times I've shot Upgrade guns - both Oph and the Youngs have much better normal attacks. The guns are good from Plink and for their (0)Actions. On paper it looks like the special guns would have their places to shine but the situation simply doesn't seem to materialize for me during games.

That's why I love this game, there's no right answer.  I can understand the usefulness of Young LaCroix over Cranky.  I should probably give them another good chance, but Old Cranky has definitely become one of those crutch models for me.

 

5 hours ago, Somnicide said:

I'm going OT in my own thread but please do! Do you just run regular bayous?

 

Sometimes if I need an extra couple of activations I'll use Bayou.  But if you really want to be a jerk, just hire 4 or 5 stuffed piglets.  That's 4 or 5 activations over your opponent for the cost of not bringing 1 big model.  I'll take that trade off easily.  Plus they're good and dangerous if they can get into a good position with a couple of enemy models.

Essentially if I want to run Mah, I hire my crew to maximize points for schemes and the Strategy, and then Mah is just thrown on top to raise Hell.  Generally I try to run her with at least 1 other really good Ml monster.  Mancha Roja, the Emissary, Whiskey Golem, things like that.  Things that can be fast enough to keep pace with her so she isn't up on her own, and then the opponent is dealing with a couple of dangerous Ml models while the rest of my crew either scores my points or picks off weaker enemies.  Other than a good Ml partner and Old Cranky, I don't typically have any set models to run with Mah.  So my pre-set "core" crew for her is only between 15 and 20 stones usually.

[Dumb Luck]

Never thought about the Young with Ophelia. Not awful, might even be worth considering. I never seem to find the space for Cranky in my lists but 6ss for three activations and an extra layer of protection around Lenny might be worth it.

I do prefer the old metals mind. Rats. Shouldn't have ditched mine.

Can't believe no one has mentioned Roosters. Buy them.

[Macumazahn]

On 1/10/2016 at 8:25 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

I can count on one hand the times I've shot Upgrade guns - both Oph and the Youngs have much better normal attacks. The guns are good from Plink and for their (0)Actions. On paper it looks like the special guns would have their places to shine but the situation simply doesn't seem to materialize for me during games.

It's strange, I always considered Ophelia to be unique precisely because of her upgrades, otherwise she does nothing special except raw damage, and she needs rams for that ,so not always. Might as well run Mah for that purpose.

It's Ophelia any good by herself without Lenny in the crew? Because he seems an autotake.

[Clement]

Linking a previous thread on Mah where I spent a lot of time on her.

Thread on which we talked a bit about Mah.

 

Old cranky gets a lot of good press, and he brings a lot to the table what with the boosting Df and the free soulstones.  One thing to keep in mind though when you're putting him with Mah/Ophelia and Lenny etc.;  he's *another* model you have to drag around while your murder boss is out doing her murder thing.

For Ophelia this will complicate order of activation and force you to telegraph to your opponent where Ophelia is headed on her activation, giving them time to clear out.

For Mah, since she's melee focused, you basically have to get Cranky up into the field of fire (at most 10 inches or so?) from the target of Mah's wrath so she can shove the old coot into position when she goes on her inevitable charge.

 

Not saying he doesn't do good work, but I don't find him the be all and end all offensive piece he's carted around as on these forums.

[Four_N_Six]

6 hours ago, Macumazahn said:

It's strange, I always considered Ophelia to be unique precisely because of her upgrades, otherwise she does nothing special except raw damage, and she needs rams for that ,so not always. Might as well run Mah for that purpose.

It's Ophelia any good by herself without Lenny in the crew? Because he seems an autotake.

That's exactly why I'm not a big fan of Ophelia, she just does damage that you need a big expensive model to guarantee. Probably why I like Mah better 

[Math Mathonwy]

6 hours ago, Macumazahn said:

It's strange, I always considered Ophelia to be unique precisely because of her upgrades, otherwise she does nothing special except raw damage, and she needs rams for that ,so not always. Might as well run Mah for that purpose.

The amount of raw damage that she does is quite extraordinary, though. And with the positives to Sh she is very economical.

6 hours ago, Macumazahn said:

It's Ophelia any good by herself without Lenny in the crew? Because he seems an autotake.

If you don't have a ton of Dumb Luck that you hope to trigger Ophelia can perform just fine without Lenny. SS or cards for Thinking Luck when needed (it isn't needed on every shot!). And not having Lenny leaves her far freer to maneuver around as is best for her - hauling Lenny around is quite limiting. Finally, Lenny is kinda squishy and very vulnerable to some things so you shouldn't rely on him too much as a canny opponent can often deal with him.

[Math Mathonwy]

3 minutes ago, Four_N_Six said:

That's exactly why I'm not a big fan of Ophelia, she just does damage that you need a big expensive model to guarantee. Probably why I like Mah better 

IME Mah tends to hog up resources while Ophelia if often very light. I often find that I blew half my hand on a Mah Activation while it isn't uncommon for Ophelia to wreck havoc with no need for cheating.

[Je ne c'est LaCroix]

On ‎01‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:25 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

I can count on one hand the times I've shot Upgrade guns - both Oph and the Youngs have much better normal attacks. The guns are good from Plink and for their (0)Actions. On paper it looks like the special guns would have their places to shine but the situation simply doesn't seem to materialize for me during games.

The (0) on Jug Rocket - Friendly Kin within 2" place within 8" - is when the good times roll. Jug + Ophelia + Francois (place Francois anywhere within 6") + Companion = sad Lilith and her stupid forest

[Somnicide]

Man I got whooped last night by Kirai while running Ophelia. Final was only 4-2 but that doesn't tell the true story of the shellacking I got for our 40ss league game. I tried Ophelia, 1 young, Francois with stilts and dirty cheater, Lenny with Can I Keep It?, a slop hauler, and 2 bayous. Turn 1 Onryo summon, followed with a turn 2 hanged, and the screechy scary thing that popped out when I damaged models was brutal.

Had I not summoned 2 pigs and sent them into the lines I'd have been even worse off,

[Macumazahn]

1 hour ago, Somnicide said:

Man I got whooped last night by Kirai while running Ophelia.

I think against Kirai you're always going to have a terrible time with Ophelia. Literally everything Kirai does counters her perfectly. Same goes for other mainly shooty crews.

[Clement]

2 hours ago, Somnicide said:

Man I got whooped last night by Kirai while running Ophelia. Final was only 4-2 but that doesn't tell the true story of the shellacking I got for our 40ss league game. I tried Ophelia, 1 young, Francois with stilts and dirty cheater, Lenny with Can I Keep It?, a slop hauler, and 2 bayous. Turn 1 Onryo summon, followed with a turn 2 hanged, and the screechy scary thing that popped out when I damaged models was brutal.

Had I not summoned 2 pigs and sent them into the lines I'd have been even worse off,

Kirai takes *a lot* of care to be ready for the inevitable arrival of the Ikiryo (screechy scary thing).  If it makes you feel any better, the recent FAQ actually made her slightly *less* scary?  The good news is it's a VERY predictable event (you damaged something Kirai cared about, receive ghost lady).

 

If you're using Lenny and going with the classic "Ooh a Girl!" Lenny toss combo;  you're likely spending Ophelia's first AP shooting your actual target, then the remaining 2 AP cleaning up the hilariously vulnerable Ikiryo  (Df 3).  Generally the best plan to deal with Ikiryo is not to kill it but to "park" it somewhere so Kirai can't keep spawning it.   Either fish out the summon away from your general group, or better yet find a way to slow/paralyze/anything it.

 

 

[Four_N_Six]

Sammy can shut that thing down no problem.  Jinx can stop a model from walking or charging, so you don't even have to get far away from her.  Once she comes out, get Sammy to hold that ghost bitch down.  I'm not sure her Wp, but Sammy has a cast of 6, so she should be able to pull it off.

[Somnicide]

Doesn't she have a 1 action to sacrifice herself?

[Clement]

19 hours ago, Somnicide said:

Doesn't she have a 1 action to sacrifice herself?

She does.  Cutting back on its movement is never bad, but it's still not as good as the alternatives.

Best case, paralyze it or cripple it in some way that it can't remove itself to pop up again.

[Macumazahn]

10 hours ago, Clement said:

Best case, paralyze it or cripple it in some way that it can't remove itself to pop up again.

But gremlins don't really have a lot of ways of handing paralyze. Only mancha roja with a trigger, Brewmaster with an upgrade and 3 poison, I think the emmisary, and Ophelia's own "my threatening gun". And I don't think the're fiable or cheap enough ways to do it.

[Four_N_Six]

Just have Trixie push it it's charge and wave goodbye.  Don't try and deny it, Trixie will be in your crew anyways.  Get that crow in there and you won't have to deal with it.

[anumberone]

 I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Ikiryo is immune to slow and paralyze because of the Kirai's soul ability. Better to bait the Kirai player to release the Ikiryo on a model you don't care about and leave it stranded. 

[Macumazahn]

Now that I think about it, Sparks must work pretty well with an Ophelia crew, those blasts and the possiblity to give fast to some of the kin look pretty great on paper. Anyone has tested that to see if it works?