Cheating Jokers

[Flib Jib]

So I've played several games where there seems to be confusion on whether and when you can cheat a joker and what the jokers mean in general. So I will try and list a concise summery, if I could have your help clarifying that would be fantastic!

 

Duel Total Flips

Attacker: 

Flips a BLACK Joker - No Damage, the attack fails.  -  Attacker cannot cheat  -  Defender may cheat but cannot declare any "after damaging or while damaging" triggers (Positive and negative twists have no affect)

Flips a RED Joker - Counts as a 14 of any ONE suit.  -   Attacker may Cheat unless the black joker was also flipped by him   -  Defender may cheat unless the black joker was also flipped by him (During a positive twist the attacker MAY choose the joker or any other flipped card. During a negative twist the attacker May choose the joker or the lowest flipped card)

Defender: 

Flips a BLACK Joker - Counts as '0' defender only adds his models stat to the duel total  -  Defender Cannot Cheat even if the red joker was flipped  -  Attacker may Cheat unless BJ was also flipped by him (Positive and negative twists have no affect)

Flips a RED Joker - Counts as a 14 of any ONE suit.  -   Attacker may Cheat unless the black joker was also flipped by him  -  Defender may cheat unless the black joker was also flipped by him (During a positive twist the defender MAY choose the joker or any other flipped card. During a negative twist the defender May choose the joker or the lowest flipped card)

Damage Flips

Attacker:

Flips a BLACK Joker - No Damage, the attack does '0' damage and does not count as having done damage.   -  Cannot be cheated when flipped

Flips a RED Joker - Counts as Severe for trigger purposes and does severe plus weak damage.  -   May be cheated when flipped

 

MATHS TO NOTE:

The attacker fails the attack if he flips the black joker on EITHER the Duel flip or the Damage flip. this is compounded when either positive or negative twists occur. 

 

References:

Quote

Small Rule Book PG. 52:

When a Black Joker is flipped it must always be chosen (even when a Red Joker is
also present) regardless of any + to the damage flip. In addition, the damage flip
cannot be cheated when a Black Joker is flipped. The Black Joker always deals no
damage, so Triggers which are declared after damaging or while damaging (such as
Critical Strike) are not applied.

Quote

Small Rule Book PG. 52:

When a Red Joker is flipped it may always be chosen (except when a Black Joker
is also present) regardless of any - to the damage flip. The Red Joker always deals
an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage. Damage that is
staged down (such as extra models hit by blast damage) becomes Moderate.

Quote

MAY FAQ Question 36:

A: The Red Joker has a value of 14 and a wild suit, chosen by the player it belongs to when it is flipped or played. For all game purposes, the suit chosen by the player counts as having been printed on the card. Although the Red Joker deals an amount of damage equal to Severe plus Weak, it counts as dealing Severe damage for the purposes of any rules which reference damage categories (for example, Molly’s Revelation Attack Action would inflict Paralyzed on the target in the case of Red Joker damage, and Nix’s Weakness Ability would reduce the Red Joker to Moderate damage).

 

Quote

 

 

[Artiee]

Simple put..
Red Joker = 14 suit is declared by the flipper.
Black Joker = 0 No suit

Simple/Opposed Duels.
If you flip a Red Joker, your opponent can not cheat.
If you flip the Black Joker, you can not cheat.
Black Joker must always be chosen regardless of 
Red Joker may be chosen regardless
Everything in else in the duels are treated normally.

Damage.
Black Joker deals 0 damage.
Red Joker deals Severe plus Weak

Healing.
Black Joker Heals 0 damage.
Red Joker Heals Severe plus Weak

Damage Prevention
Black Joker Prevents 0 damage.
Red Joker Prevents All damage

No auto fail.

[Paddywhack]

23 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Attacker: 

Flips a BLACK Joker - No Damage, the attack fails.  -  Attacker cannot cheat  -  Defender may cheat but cannot declare any "after damaging or while damaging" triggers (Positive and negative twists have no affect)

This first, but I am still looking at your other items. The Black joker on the attack flip is not an auto fail. It counts as '0' and has no Suit (p 17 of small rules manual) and gets added to your stat as normal. Attacker may not cheat fate. The bit about the triggers should be in your section on Damage Flips. The BJ on the attack flip has nothing to do with damage.

Theoretically both players could flip BJ on the Attack and the Attacker might have a higher total and still win the Duel. Then they would perform a Damage Flip as usual. 

[Flib Jib]

8 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

This first, but I am still looking at your other items. The Black joker on the attack flip is not an auto fail. It counts as '0' and has no Suit (p 17 of small rules manual) and gets added to your stat as normal. Attacker may not cheat fate. The bit about the triggers should be in your section on Damage Flips. The BJ on the attack flip has nothing to do with damage.

Thanks Paddywhack, I think the SRB reference is on page 13. is this what you were talking about?

Quote

Black Joker
The Black Joker has a value of 0 and no suit. The Black Joker must be used
regardless of the number of cards flipped (see the Fate Modifiers, pg. 17).

 

[Paddywhack]

That is the one. Note that no where does it say a BJ is an auto fail. 

I think this might help and others please correct me if I am wrong:

Attack flip:

• Attacker - Flips Black Joker = Counts as '0' and no suit. Attacker may not Cheat fate
• Attacker - Flips Red joker = Counts as '14' and one suit announced on flip. Defender may not Cheat Fate. 

• Defender - Flips Black Joker = Counts as '0' and no suit. Defender may not Cheat fate
• Defender- Flips Red joker = Counts as '14' and one suit announced on flip. Attacker may not Cheat Fate.

It looks like you have Damage Flips correct. Pretty straightforward on that one. RJ = Severe+Weak and any one suit of choice - can be cheated (if desired). BJ = '0' Damage and no damage is dealt for trigger purposes (so neither player can use triggers that are after Damaging, etc.) - cannot be cheated. 

[solkan]

27 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

MATHS TO NOTE:

The attacker fails the attack if he flips the black joker on EITHER the Duel flip or the Damage flip. this is compounded when either positive or negative twists occur.

Not true, and indicates two errors:

1.  The attack flip and the damage flip are separate.  A black joker which applied to the attack flip does not also apply to the damage flip.  A black joker that applies to the damage flip does not retroactively apply to the attack flip.

The rules for a Black Joker are:

Quote

The Black Joker has a value of 0 and no suit. The Black Joker must be used regardless of the number of cards flipped (see the Fate Modifiers, pg. 27).

Quote

Black Joker: Regardless of the modifier, if the Black Joker is flipped the player must choose it, even if there are one or more cards flipped because of a .

(and note the part in the Red Joker rules where it makes a point of saying "As long as the Black Joker is not also flipped".

Quote

If a player flips a Black Joker from her Fate Deck, she is not allowed to Cheat Fate.

which means that the Black Joker negates the permission a player may have otherwise had to cheat a particular flip.

For the damage flip, this entire paragraph:

Quote

When a Black Joker is flipped it must always be chosen (even when a Red Joker is also present) regardless of any to the damage flip. In addition, the damage flip cannot be cheated when a Black Joker is flipped. The Black Joker always deals no damage, so Triggers which are declared after damaging or while damaging (such as Critical Strike) are not applied.

consists of redundant reminders of other rules.  The first sentence is a restatement of the second quote.  The second sentence is a restatement of the third quote.  The fourth sentence is a restatement of damage flip table (which shows 0 for the Black Joker result) followed by a reminder of what not causing damage does to two types of triggers that depend on causing damage.

 

2.  The fact that an attack does not inflict damage does not make the attack fail.  Among other differences, an 'On success' triggers don't care whether the attack ends up causing any damage.

For example, the Fire Gamin attack:

Quote

(1) Burning Claws (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 1/2/3 damage and gains the Burning +1 Condition.

A Fire Gamin attacks Slate Ridge Mauler using the Burning Claws action.  They both flip 5's in the attack due and choose not to cheat because this is an example.  The Fire Gamin flips a black joker for the damage flip.  The Slate Ridge Mauler suffer 0 damage and gains Burning +1.

If the attack had a trigger: 

" Succeeding Trigger Example: After succeeding, target gains Poisoned +1"

that trigger would still apply if the black joker was flipped for damage.  But this trigger

" Damaging Trigger Example:  After damaging, target gains Poisoned +1"

would not apply if the black joker was flipped for damage.  Because 0 damage fails to satisfy an "After damaging" trigger, whether that 0 damage is caused by a black joker, damage prevention, a model's special rules.