The Dreamer and Johan...

[Rabid Bunny]

Hey, I had a bit of trouble sleeping last night, so I decided to do some theoryfaux whilst I tried to doze off. One thing to note is that I am still a new player, so this could all be a load of billhooks. Ironically, I started thinking about the Dreamer.

The Dreamer was the model that got me into Malifaux originally, the idea of a warped Calvin and Hobbes really intrigued me. The Nightmare models are nice, as well as pretty much everything else in the Neverborn faction (part of the reason I own all of the current plastic models despite only having played 10 or so games...), the Dreamer will probably be the next Master I try. I want to run Summoning Dreamer, but the waking limit seems to be the hard cap on how much stuff you can get out a turn. I had a flick through my stack of cards and thought about the Black Blood Scion for condition removal, but this is done at the start of the model's activation rather than during the Scion's. It also costs two cards, which is a bit steep for a Master that needs to discard cards to fob off damage to his friends.

 

So I dug out my Johan card and read through his commanding shout ability (GO BACK TO SLEEP!), Does anyone think it could be handy having him follow the Dreamer around keeping his Waking lower for maximum nonsense healing? The idea of summoning a Teddy, then have it heal 5 damage when it activates, then have it heal another 5 the next turn before it starts running around eating stuff is tempting.

[Patzer]

Johan can't remove the Waking condition from Dreamer.

[chryspainthemum]

The waking condition can only be removed by enemy models iirc, so you'd have to do convince your opponents to use their Johan to do it.

 

Also summoning Teddy requires a different set of circumstances (mr. Tannen and the King of Masks), and while it can be cool, I think it's a trap because Teddy is not exactly a tough model and coming in at low wounds means he's going to do very little for the resources spent. But that's just one man's opinion.

[zeeblee]

Yeah, the only ways to remove Waking without your opponent's help are to go through the Lord Chompy cycle (which can still heal your stuff as long as you activate LCB and pop the Dreamer back out) and to use the Scion of Black Blood's discard ability.

[chryspainthemum]

Also to answer your larger question about playing summon dreamer: you don't actually want to summon more than one or two things a turn generally. Dreamer has a lot of other actions and its usually better to use 1 or 2 ap for buffing your crew rather than summoning a new weak model.

[Mr Janje]

Could you Obey an enemy Johan to Rebel Yell your own Waking off you?

Vasilisa could manage the Obey ^^

[santaclaws01]

9 minutes ago, Mr Janje said:

Could you Obey an enemy Johan to Rebel Yell your own Waking off you?

Vasilisa could manage the Obey ^^

No for 2 reasons. Waking cannot be removed by any other actions, and obey doesn't change what models are friendly or enemy.

[Kirby]

2 hours ago, chryspainthemum said:

Also summoning Teddy requires a different set of circumstances (mr. Tannen and the King of Masks), and while it can be cool, I think it's a trap because Teddy is not exactly a tough model and coming in at low wounds means he's going to do very little for the resources spent. But that's just one man's opinion.

I definitely agree that summoning Teddy is situational.  Best-case scenario: activating Tannen earlier in the turn isn't a problem, Dreamer only needs to summon the Teddy so he can be at Waking 0, and you have the Accomplice upgrade so you can immediately activate Teddy so he regenerates another 5 wounds.  Even better if you can remove the Slow (spend the stone during summon, or use Dreamer's condition removal) so you can charge into something and start eating.

[tomjoad]

21 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

No for 2 reasons. Waking cannot be removed by any other actions, and obey doesn't change what models are friendly or enemy.

Yes, because Waking cannot be removed by friendly model's actions, and casting obey on an enemy Johan would mean an enemy model is taking an action to remove it. This is too situational and inefficient to be of much use, I think, but it's there.

Using Scion of Black Blood to remove Waking is a bit more reliable, but extremely card intensive.

Just summoning a ton of things on one turn and getting Chomps out remains the best way to remove Waking, though.

[Mxbedlam]

So Dreamer wants to summon stuff, yeah but usually just turn 1 and 2. The next turns should be spent speeding things up and then possibly running schemes. Incorporeal means he can walk pretty darn far. 

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

Yes, because Waking cannot be removed by friendly model's actions, and casting obey on an enemy Johan would mean an enemy model is taking an action to remove it. This is too situational and inefficient to be of much use, I think, but it's there.

Using Scion of Black Blood to remove Waking is a bit more reliable, but extremely card intensive.

Just summoning a ton of things on one turn and getting Chomps out remains the best way to remove Waking, though.

I was very wrong it seems. What I get for going off of memory instead of just looking at the cards.

[chryspainthemum]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I was very wrong it seems. What I get for going off of memory instead of just looking at the cards.

I'd have to check at home, but I believe enemy models count as friendly for the duration of obey?

[tomjoad]

11 minutes ago, chryspainthemum said:

I'd have to check at home, but I believe enemy models count as friendly for the duration of obey?

They do not, but some Obey-like actions make the model being Obey'ed treat the caster as friendly (Heed My Voice on Huggy, for example). Even then, the model does not count as friendly to the rest of your crew.

[orkdork]

I wouldn't consider either to be worthwhile ways of going about it.

Plus, Chompy is important for a couple reasons:

1. Mobility

2. Projecting a charge threat zone

Even if he never attacks, his threat range + ability to reposition dreamer is really, really good.

[tomjoad]

54 minutes ago, orkdork said:

I wouldn't consider either to be worthwhile ways of going about it.

Plus, Chompy is important for a couple reasons:

1. Mobility

2. Projecting a charge threat zone

Even if he never attacks, his threat range + ability to reposition dreamer is really, really good.

Totally agree with this. In 9 games out of 10, Chompy just shows up for me, does nothing, and brings the Dreamer back. Having the threat of Chompy doing something, though, is a genuinely useful tool. Plus, in that 10th game, he manages to hit that instant kill trigger while your opponent can't stop you and you get to 1-shot Joss or Lady J or something.

I do still think Johan is worth including in Dreamer crews, though. He can remove Slow from your summoned buddies and he's got to be one of the top mid-cost beaters in the game. I don't always include him, but against Ressers or another match where I expect to be subject to many conditions, I think he's worth dropping an Illuminated for.